From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 7 19:26:12 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, December 8 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2040 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Re: [db] recent adventures Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:41:43 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Paul asked: >I'm a former lister - foolishly sold my W123 240D a few years ago. I'm >interested in opinions on the 98-99 300 Turbodiesel (I don't know the >W-designation). Also thoughts on the various models of W124 diesels. >Anything to seek out or stay away from? > >I love the 123's but there simply aren't many good ones left - and those folks >don't seem to be selling. > > I also owned an 240D ('81) which, so far, ranks as my favorite car of all time. That may change, though. One of the attributes I loved on the W123 240D was "simplicity". That car was probably the easiest one to work on of any I've owned. My others had been VW's, a Subaru, Pinto ( ;-) ) and an MB 220 gasser (1973 model). If you liked the same thing about your 240D, you're in for a rude shock on the '98-99 E-Class diesels. There's computer control on the engine (you'll get that with the VW TDI's, also) and all sorts of luxury extras that can go wrong. A quick check on the net showed a mixed bag of opinions on these two model years. Of course the negative ones caught my attention. It appears that the transmission is electronically controlled and it a "piece of junk" according to one MB mechanic. That may not be true, but I've never had a lot of luck with an automatic transmission and I wouldn't want to tempt the fates driving one with questionable reliability. If it were me, I'd write off the newer E-Class diesels that were introduced in 1996. As for the W124's, I'll mention that in a minute. But, as you said, finding a good 240D is getting nearly impossible. You'll have better luck finding a 300D. With that you have an automatic transmission, automatic climate control, power windows and a turbo (in the later models-'82-84(?)). There goes simplicity. But, as you will find, the 240D may be the last simple MB diesel that was made. The W201 190D appears to be close, but no cigar as far as I'm concerned. If your budget is tight, consider a 1981-1985 300SD (W126 - S-Class). They are about the same as the W123 300D's, but much more refined. They ride smoother and are much quieter. They get 28-30 mpg with normal driving and have way more power than your 240D ever could imagine to have. Like the W123's, they are getting old. But, used parts should be plentiful at the bone yards since they produced until 1992. New and rebuilt parts are about the same price as their W123 counterparts, so no problem there. They can usually be had for $3500-5000 for a good looking one. If you go newer, the price and complexity (airbags, ABS, etc.) goes up. The only one I know to stay away from is the 350SDL. This model may have also been badged as a 350SD. It is a 6 cylinder 3.0 litre diesel, with a turbo (I think), that was bored and stroked to be a 3.5 litre engine. The shorter connecting rods proved to be unreliable and the engine self destructed within 150K. I would stay away from them, even if the engine was replaced by MB, just in case. However, if you've resigned yourself to the fact that the 240D's days are now in the past, consider the W124 diesels. If you've read the list recently, I bought a '95 E300 Diesel, with 173K on it, last week. It is pristine and I paid $10K, which is about average, or a little lower, for this model when purchased from a dealer's used car lot. If you buy one from a private owner, $8-9K is more what you'd expect to have to pay. What is it? A W124 body, the last model year it was made, with a 6 cylinder, 24 valve, DOHC, normally aspirated (non-turbo) diesel engine that is, as far as I'm concerned, AWESOME!! If you consider the W124 chassis the replacement for the W123, which it was, consider this model as the culmination of the evolution of the W123 300D's. It rides almost as smooth as my '84 300SD (which says something about the MB S-Class models), is quieter and almost as powerful. Off the line, my SD is quicker but the E300D rapidly catches up. On the highway, it's great and passes other cars with ease. Again, it doesn't have the immediate get up and go, but it gets there very quickly. The car is about the size of the 240D and is much easier to get in the garage than my SD.... The front door pockets are almost useless, though. The are much smaller that either my 240D's or 300SD's. I have been having trouble figuring out where to put a carton of cigarettes... John and all, get off my case! The door pockets aren't wide enough. I can live with that, though. I really should quit smoking but, again, get off my case! The only major irritation is the lack of a glovebox. How much advanced engineering know how do you need to design a passenger side area that has both a glovebox and an airbag??? Obviously that was a bad day for those engineers at MB... They did provide storage in the driver's armrest and a neat lockable one below it on the center console. But it's not enough for me... At this point, I would like to thank J.B. for the recommendation that pushed me over the edge and made me buy this beast. I agree with him 1000%. And, if this car proves to be at least as reliable as my 300SD, it will become my favorite all time car. Here's a big diesel-benz high five, J.B. :-] OK, a convoluted smilie...I couldn't figure out how to do a high five in text... John's '91 300D would be a great car for you if you can make it out to his area. I'm sure it would drive back to Maryland without any problem. Any of the W124 diesels would be a fine car to own, provided they are in good condition when you find them. Take your time to find the right one. It took me 6 months, and I wasn't really looking for a W124. That chassis, since John got one, had been in the back corners of my thought process, but I was looking for a W123, W116 or a W126. This '95 just sort of popped into view and wouldn't go away. I had the same thoughts before I bought my '81 240D. My brain finally linked the two together and gave me a dope slap. J.B.'s recommendation reinforced that pop on the back of my psyche and the E300D is in the garage now. "Bruno", my '84 300SD, is in the driveway with 1/4 of ice all over it. Poor thing, he deserves better than that.... To add insult to injury, my daughter's '94 Cavalier is parked behind him. Sometimes the life of an MB is not fair... Let us know what you decide to buy. As you know, the search will be frustrating. I quit looking a few times after taking my time to look at an "excellent" specimen of the MB diesel I was looking for only to find out that the only thing "excellent" was that I didn't own that piece of crap! ;-) Take care, and thanks, again, J.B. Jon '95 E300 Diesel [not named as present] '84 300SD "Bruno" the ice sculpture..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:56:51 -0500 From: "Richard P. Welty" Subject: Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel > Paul asked: > >> I'm a former lister - foolishly sold my W123 240D a few years >> ago. I'm >> interested in opinions on the 98-99 300 Turbodiesel (I don't know the >> W-designation). the original E class is the W210. my wive drives a normally aspirated 1996. in many ways, it's a very nice car. handling is superb, the engine is quiet and smooth by diesel standards. on the other hand, they are more expensive to maintain than a W123, by a fair margin. replacing pads in an ABS car isn't as simple, replacing your own glow plugs can get you into trouble too (we've had both issues come up.) right now, the A/C is not workingg and our mechanic tells us that there's many hours of labor just to get the dash apart to finish diagnosing the problem. so i can't really recommend the car to a hard core do it yourself mechanic, that's for sure. richard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:16:17 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel I agree with what you're saying about the 124. It is the best Mercedes chassis I've ever owned. This 2.5L TD is a sweet little motor, transmission is superb. It's not fair to leave Bruno sit... he needs exercise. Ice? Where the heck are you? :) Administering a final right now, grading reesearch papers, and longing to be at home with my son and the '48 Willys. :) And yes, you should quit smoking, and yes the 300D would make it across the country and back without any problems at all... and do it on the same oil change and still get high marks with an analysis. :) Keep your eyes out for wrecked Mercedes with the 2.5L TD... I do have a '92 XJ chassis available... :) john On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Jon Filina wrote: > --> > -->John's '91 300D would be a great car for you if you can make it out to his > -->area. I'm sure it would drive back to Maryland without any problem. Any of > -->the W124 diesels would be a fine car to own, provided they are in good > -->condition when you find them. Take your time to find the right one. It > -->took me 6 months, and I wasn't really looking for a W124. That chassis, > -->since John got one, had been in the back corners of my thought process, but > -->I was looking for a W123, W116 or a W126. This '95 just sort of popped into > -->view and wouldn't go away. I had the same thoughts before I bought my '81 > -->240D. My brain finally linked the two together and gave me a dope slap. > -->J.B.'s recommendation reinforced that pop on the back of my psyche and the > -->E300D is in the garage now. "Bruno", my '84 300SD, is in the driveway with > -->1/4 of ice all over it. Poor thing, he deserves better than that.... To > -->add insult to injury, my daughter's '94 Cavalier is parked behind him. > -->Sometimes the life of an MB is not fair... > --> > -->Let us know what you decide to buy. As you know, the search will be > -->frustrating. I quit looking a few times after taking my time to look at an > -->"excellent" specimen of the MB diesel I was looking for only to find out > -->that the only thing "excellent" was that I didn't own that piece of crap! > -->;-) > --> > -->Take care, and thanks, again, J.B. > --> > -->Jon > -->'95 E300 Diesel [not named as present] > -->'84 300SD "Bruno" the ice sculpture..... > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:20:39 +0000 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] recent adventures On Wed Dec 07, 2005, john wrote: > > oh crud... I forgot to add the dot com. ;) Doh. And it shows how tired I was that I didn't notice that simple error! > >--> (I do have to mention that the DOL folks were very > >--> nice about it and accepted my KBB printout without > >--> question, though, so I ended up only taxed on my > >--> purchase price of $6,350, instead.) > > the folks in the agencies are not DOL and will often work with us > if we can document things or get statements. Er, heh, the DoR folks were the ones I had to convince. Silly me. Although the Everett DoL folks were also just as friendly. Geez. Must start going to bed earlier... - -bkc Lynnwood, WA '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] '00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] (to be sold) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (replaces ML) '92 Toyota Celica GT (wife's old car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:41:43 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] Advice on another M-B Diesel Paul asked: >I'm a former lister - foolishly sold my W123 240D a few years ago. I'm >interested in opinions on the 98-99 300 Turbodiesel (I don't know the >W-designation). Also thoughts on the various models of W124 diesels. >Anything to seek out or stay away from? > >I love the 123's but there simply aren't many good ones left - and those folks >don't seem to be selling. > > I also owned an 240D ('81) which, so far, ranks as my favorite car of all time. That may change, though. One of the attributes I loved on the W123 240D was "simplicity". That car was probably the easiest one to work on of any I've owned. My others had been VW's, a Subaru, Pinto ( ;-) ) and an MB 220 gasser (1973 model). If you liked the same thing about your 240D, you're in for a rude shock on the '98-99 E-Class diesels. There's computer control on the engine (you'll get that with the VW TDI's, also) and all sorts of luxury extras that can go wrong. A quick check on the net showed a mixed bag of opinions on these two model years. Of course the negative ones caught my attention. It appears that the transmission is electronically controlled and it a "piece of junk" according to one MB mechanic. That may not be true, but I've never had a lot of luck with an automatic transmission and I wouldn't want to tempt the fates driving one with questionable reliability. If it were me, I'd write off the newer E-Class diesels that were introduced in 1996. As for the W124's, I'll mention that in a minute. But, as you said, finding a good 240D is getting nearly impossible. You'll have better luck finding a 300D. With that you have an automatic transmission, automatic climate control, power windows and a turbo (in the later models-'82-84(?)). There goes simplicity. But, as you will find, the 240D may be the last simple MB diesel that was made. The W201 190D appears to be close, but no cigar as far as I'm concerned. If your budget is tight, consider a 1981-1985 300SD (W126 - S-Class). They are about the same as the W123 300D's, but much more refined. They ride smoother and are much quieter. They get 28-30 mpg with normal driving and have way more power than your 240D ever could imagine to have. Like the W123's, they are getting old. But, used parts should be plentiful at the bone yards since they produced until 1992. New and rebuilt parts are about the same price as their W123 counterparts, so no problem there. They can usually be had for $3500-5000 for a good looking one. If you go newer, the price and complexity (airbags, ABS, etc.) goes up. The only one I know to stay away from is the 350SDL. This model may have also been badged as a 350SD. It is a 6 cylinder 3.0 litre diesel, with a turbo (I think), that was bored and stroked to be a 3.5 litre engine. The shorter connecting rods proved to be unreliable and the engine self destructed within 150K. I would stay away from them, even if the engine was replaced by MB, just in case. However, if you've resigned yourself to the fact that the 240D's days are now in the past, consider the W124 diesels. If you've read the list recently, I bought a '95 E300 Diesel, with 173K on it, last week. It is pristine and I paid $10K, which is about average, or a little lower, for this model when purchased from a dealer's used car lot. If you buy one from a private owner, $8-9K is more what you'd expect to have to pay. What is it? A W124 body, the last model year it was made, with a 6 cylinder, 24 valve, DOHC, normally aspirated (non-turbo) diesel engine that is, as far as I'm concerned, AWESOME!! If you consider the W124 chassis the replacement for the W123, which it was, consider this model as the culmination of the evolution of the W123 300D's. It rides almost as smooth as my '84 300SD (which says something about the MB S-Class models), is quieter and almost as powerful. Off the line, my SD is quicker but the E300D rapidly catches up. On the highway, it's great and passes other cars with ease. Again, it doesn't have the immediate get up and go, but it gets there very quickly. The car is about the size of the 240D and is much easier to get in the garage than my SD.... The front door pockets are almost useless, though. The are much smaller that either my 240D's or 300SD's. I have been having trouble figuring out where to put a carton of cigarettes... John and all, get off my case! The door pockets aren't wide enough. I can live with that, though. I really should quit smoking but, again, get off my case! The only major irritation is the lack of a glovebox. How much advanced engineering know how do you need to design a passenger side area that has both a glovebox and an airbag??? Obviously that was a bad day for those engineers at MB... They did provide storage in the driver's armrest and a neat lockable one below it on the center console. But it's not enough for me... At this point, I would like to thank J.B. for the recommendation that pushed me over the edge and made me buy this beast. I agree with him 1000%. And, if this car proves to be at least as reliable as my 300SD, it will become my favorite all time car. Here's a big diesel-benz high five, J.B. :-] OK, a convoluted smilie...I couldn't figure out how to do a high five in text... John's '91 300D would be a great car for you if you can make it out to his area. I'm sure it would drive back to Maryland without any problem. Any of the W124 diesels would be a fine car to own, provided they are in good condition when you find them. Take your time to find the right one. It took me 6 months, and I wasn't really looking for a W124. That chassis, since John got one, had been in the back corners of my thought process, but I was looking for a W123, W116 or a W126. This '95 just sort of popped into view and wouldn't go away. I had the same thoughts before I bought my '81 240D. My brain finally linked the two together and gave me a dope slap. J.B.'s recommendation reinforced that pop on the back of my psyche and the E300D is in the garage now. "Bruno", my '84 300SD, is in the driveway with 1/4 of ice all over it. Poor thing, he deserves better than that.... To add insult to injury, my daughter's '94 Cavalier is parked behind him. Sometimes the life of an MB is not fair... Let us know what you decide to buy. As you know, the search will be frustrating. I quit looking a few times after taking my time to look at an "excellent" specimen of the MB diesel I was looking for only to find out that the only thing "excellent" was that I didn't own that piece of crap! ;-) Take care, and thanks, again, J.B. Jon '95 E300 Diesel [not named as present] '84 300SD "Bruno" the ice sculpture..... ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2040 **********************************