From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 21 00:18:30 2006 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, June 21 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2172 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] I Feel So Used... [db] w115 oil filter torque? Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" [db] Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:01:13 -0700 From: "Roger Shoaf" Subject: Re: [db] I Feel So Used... Jerry, Next time try Rusty. http://www.mbz.org/ Every order I have placed with him has been at a fair price and promptly shipped. Roger Shoaf 83 300SD If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the Congress? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Kaidor" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: [db] I Feel So Used... > *** They had them, I needed them. So I bent over and... > > Conventional wisdom is to change all the O-rings in the refrigeration > circuit when you convert to R134A. OK, I bought a little O-ring kit > at the Autozone for $5. Nope, none of those fit. > > So then I went to the NAPA - they only had four kinds, but knew of a > place round the corner "global metric" that had more. Global Metric had a > veritable treasure trove of 40 different sizes, all the proper HNBR > material, all five cents apiece. Still no joy. > > So I went to the Mercedes dealer. FORTY FIVE DOLLARS LATER I walked > out with 8 small HNBR O-rings. Two of them were about 1/2 inch in > diameter, the other six about 1/4 inch in diameter. > > I left the Mercedes dealer with a feeling that I normally associate > more with aircraft parts. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:26:37 -0700 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: [db] w115 oil filter torque? (Thanks to all who gave suggestions on the roof rack issue, btw. Still trying to track down a couple of the options to try.) Was changing the oil on my w115 (learning how to do it myself for the first time, finally!), but couldn't find anything as to how tight to get the bolt holding the filter container. Hand tightened it, but is that good enough? Didn't seem to leak any after a bit of local driving... (On to my wife's Toyota's oil later this week, after finding out that the oil light had apparently been on for weeks before I happened to ride in it and thought it was a bit rough -- bone dry!) - -bkc Lynnwood, WA '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (replaces ML) '92 Toyota Celica GT (wife's old car) '00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] (to be sold) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? don't know what the specific torque setting is, with the o-ring in there it would be hard to get an accurate reading... you don't want to over tighten it or the o-ring will squeeze out... too loose and it'll vibrate. A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) Suggest practicing on the wife's Toyota, or on some scrap parts... john On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >-->(Thanks to all who gave suggestions on the roof rack >-->issue, btw. Still trying to track down a couple of >-->the options to try.) >--> >-->Was changing the oil on my w115 (learning how to >-->do it myself for the first time, finally!), but >-->couldn't find anything as to how tight to get the >-->bolt holding the filter container. Hand tightened >-->it, but is that good enough? Didn't seem to leak >-->any after a bit of local driving... >--> >-->(On to my wife's Toyota's oil later this week, after >-->finding out that the oil light had apparently been >-->on for weeks before I happened to ride in it and >-->thought it was a bit rough -- bone dry!) >--> >-->-bkc >-->Lynnwood, WA >-->'76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] >-->'93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (replaces ML) >-->'92 Toyota Celica GT (wife's old car) >-->'00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] (to be sold) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:48:22 -0400 From: Marc Z Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Good stuff. The feel part can be interesting. What I do, is if the bolt/nut is small (relative term), I usually grasp the wrench or socket driver close to the nut/bolt to prevent applying too much tightness. The large the bolt, the further out my hand moves on the wrench. This technique is used when torque settings are not available. Like John says, after you break a few bolts you know how far to go. :-) I'm curious, what model is your W115? Marc Z. john wrote: don't know what the specific torque setting is, with the o-ring in there it would be hard to get an accurate reading... you don't want to over tighten it or the o-ring will squeeze out... too loose and it'll vibrate. A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) Suggest practicing on the wife's Toyota, or on some scrap parts... john On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Bruce Caruthers wrote: -->(Thanks to all who gave suggestions on the roof rack -->issue, btw. Still trying to track down a couple of -->the options to try.) --> -->Was changing the oil on my w115 (learning how to -->do it myself for the first time, finally!), but -->couldn't find anything as to how tight to get the -->bolt holding the filter container. Hand tightened -->it, but is that good enough? Didn't seem to leak -->any after a bit of local driving... --> -->(On to my wife's Toyota's oil later this week, after -->finding out that the oil light had apparently been -->on for weeks before I happened to ride in it and -->thought it was a bit rough -- bone dry!) --> -->-bkc -->Lynnwood, WA -->'76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] -->'93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (replaces ML) -->'92 Toyota Celica GT (wife's old car) -->'00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] (to be sold) --> ---- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? John wrote: > A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until > it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". > > It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the elasticity isn't apparent. With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces and you should understand that within these ranges metals are elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is taken up. The force required to reach these three points is different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:05:16 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" excellent... :) john On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: John wrote: > A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until > it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". > > It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the elasticity isn't apparent. With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces and you should understand that within these ranges metals are elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is taken up. The force required to reach these three points is different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "ernest breakfield" Subject: [db] Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" i guess maybe you'd have to know me to understand why i find quotes from an admittedly insane former Tech Writer so amusing...? ;-) my favorite description of how manuals get written comes from that book. ;-O cheers! e > excellent... :) > john > > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > John wrote: > >> A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until >> it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". >> >> It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) >> > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > Maintenance: > > "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the > elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very > little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very > careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, > have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in > which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the > elasticity isn't apparent. > > With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces > and you should understand that within these ranges metals are > elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" > where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's > "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then > there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is > taken up. The force required to reach these three points is > different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for > lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different > for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics > and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when > something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right > on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. > > A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the > elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to > understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally > take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 00:17:24 -0700 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Cool. Thanks to all. Sounds roughly like what I ended up doing (and it hasn't noticably leaked or rattled so far). Hopefully I will develop that "mechanic's feel" quickly. :) Oh, and for Marc, who asked what model of w115: it is a 1976 240D On another note, is Chilton's a decent manual? The local Schucks actually has one ($20). Thanks! -bkc On Tue Jun 20, 2006, john wrote: > excellent... :) > john > > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > John wrote: > > > A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until > > it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". > > > > It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) > > > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > Maintenance: > > "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the > elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very > little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very > careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, > have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in > which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the > elasticity isn't apparent. > > With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces > and you should understand that within these ranges metals are > elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" > where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's > "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then > there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is > taken up. The force required to reach these three points is > different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for > lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different > for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics > and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when > something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right > on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. > > A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the > elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to > understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally > take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2172 **********************************