From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jun 22 09:59:04 2006 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, June 22 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2173 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" [db] Re-engineering German cars - a new hybrid Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 00:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" >-->On another note, is Chilton's a decent manual? The >-->local Schucks actually has one ($20). are you serious??? not a chance... although it might have some useful pictures to help visualize what is needed. But Chilton's haven't been good since the '60's. get the factory manuals, they're not easy to comprehend, but better than a chilton's. I've got several variations of manuals... none of them very good for the benz... which benz do you need the manual for? I've got the 124 on cd, the 124 bible (not very useful) and probably a chiltons or haynes... the cd's are the most useful... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:34:46 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? Jerry Kaidor wrote: John wrote: A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the elasticity isn't apparent. With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces and you should understand that within these ranges metals are elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is taken up. The force required to reach these three points is different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) Jerry, John et al: I love the above description. I am especially a believer in the ability of a driver to experience the car as an extension of his body, immediately noticing when something is not right and being able to diagnose the trouble. I once lent a car to a friend (a New England Yankee engineer, owner of an engineering company), traded for his pickup for a weekend. When we traded back I told him he had a right front wheel bearing going. He didn't believe me, but told me a few weeks later that the bearing had seized. That being said, I use a torque wrench. It takes just a few seconds and they are cheap. The manuals usually show torque settings, and one can find generic specs for different bolt sizes. I know many pro mechanics rely on feel. But I watched my brother (BS in Mechanical Engineering, MS in Industrial Engineering, former Service Manager at an auto dealership) shear off an exhaust manifold stud using feel. Not much of a time saving there! Using kinesthetic feedback is fine for an emergency repair out on the road; but in the shop use the right tools. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA '85 300SD Turbo '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 6.9L F350 Crew Cab (going) '97 7.3L F250 HD 4WD Crew Cab No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.2/370 - Release Date: 6/20/2006 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:01:41 -0700 From: "Roger Shoaf" Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Fiorentino" To: "Jerry Kaidor" Cc: "Marc Z" ; "john" ; "Bruce Caruthers" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [db] w115 oil filter torque? But I watched my brother (BS in Mechanical Engineering, MS > in Industrial Engineering, former Service Manager at an auto dealership) > shear off an exhaust manifold stud using feel. Not much of a time saving > there! > Unless your brother was working on a new exhaust manifold stud I would not think too poorly of him __ Roger Shoaf Important factors in selecting a mate: 1] Depth of gene pool 2] Position on the food chain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" > Cool. Thanks to all. Sounds roughly like what I > ended up doing (and it hasn't noticably leaked or > rattled so far). Hopefully I will develop that > "mechanic's feel" quickly. :) *** It's mostly a feel for torque. As you turn the nut, the torque ( how hard you have to pull ) goes up smoothly the further you turn. At some point, the torque will will stop going up, or go up more slowly. At that point, you've turned too far. The bolt is actually stretching like taffy, or the nut is crushing through the threads. Usually, the bolt will snap first, normally where the threads meet the shank. But sometimes the threads will strip first. If the bolt and nut are more or less equal in quality, the nut's threads will usually strip before the bolts. This is because nuts are manufactured by cutting their threads, whereas bolts are manufactured by rolling the threads. Rolling is a sort of "forging" operation, where the metal is squashed, and made stronger. Cutting OTOH, is an operation that can only weaken metal - cuts are made across the existing grain. It might be worth it to go buy 10 or 20 sacrificial nuts and bolts and just torque them til they break, to get the feel for it. 1/4-inch fasteners should be about right. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:58:19 -0400 From: Marc Z Subject: Re: [db] re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Oh, cool. The second benz that I ever rode in was my father's '76 300D. The first was his '72 250. The 300D was the orange/red color. That (yellow/beige) 250 he had was a quick machine. An line 6 with dual carbs. Oh baby. It was fun to drive alone after getting my driver's license. :-) He now has the newest diesel and it is quite fast. Marc Z. Bruce Caruthers wrote: > Cool. Thanks to all. Sounds roughly like what I > ended up doing (and it hasn't noticably leaked or > rattled so far). Hopefully I will develop that > "mechanic's feel" quickly. :) > > Oh, and for Marc, who asked what model of w115: > it is a 1976 240D > > On another note, is Chilton's a decent manual? The > local Schucks actually has one ($20). > > Thanks! > -bkc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re-engineering German cars - a new hybrid wonder if this will work with veggie oil? Chuck, this could be you: http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/ :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2173 **********************************