From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Sep 21 10:44:22 2006 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, September 21 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2249 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:36:43 -0400 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Hey! Al Gore made a movie about it and he invented the Internet so it HAS to be true! ;) But seriously, it is forcing the manufacturers to create clean burning diesel engines and that IS a good thing. I'm very interested in the BlueTec system from MB but just can't afford one of those cars yet. I'll watch and see how they fare and maybe get a used one in a few years... Jim > John, > So glad to hear you say this!!! The global warming 'issues' subject is one > of my pet hates... ever read "State of Fear" ISBN : 0061015733 ? Worth a > read, it really is... for the factual content moreso than the fictional > story that accompanies it (altho, that is also a reasonably good read). > This media/politically generated hype works all across the board... remember > the "Killer Bees from Africa" scare in the early '80s? What happened to > them?? Actually.. in the '80's I remember we were told that we were entering > an Ice age!! > OK, You get where I'm coming from, I'm going to end my rant before I get > started or I'll ruin my day ;-) > > Steve > > > > On 9/21/06, john wrote: > > > > thinking about this, this lawsuit could expose some of > > the weakness in these arguments... we simply do not have > > enough data to understand if there really is global warming > > or if this is just part of a normal meterological cylce. > > We have what, 100, 150 years of data? What's that in > > relation to the percentage of time according to your world view? > > > > this is chicken little territory, more emotion than fact. wild > > speculation with an agenda. what are the real facts? > > > > let's hope the auto industry employs real scientists to > > deal with this logically instead of emotionally. > > > > john > > > > > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Ed Kummel wrote: > > > > >-->Didn't we already have a lawsuit like this...and it failed? It was the > > fat person suing McDonalds for serving food that would make him fat... > > >--> > > >--> Ed > > >--> web/gadget guru > > >--> > > >-->john wrote: > > >--> check this out: > > >--> > > >-->Offbeat News > > >-->Wednesday, Sept. 20, 2006 > > >-->Calif. sues 6 carmakers over greenhouse gases > > >--> > > >--> > > >--> > > >--> > > >-->SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California filed suit against Ford Motor > > Co., General Motors Corp., Toyota Motor Corp. and three other carmakers on > > Wednesday, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have cost the > > state millions of dollars. > > >--> > > >-->State Attorney General Bill Lockyer said the lawsuit filed in U.S. > > District Court in Northern California was the first of its kind to seek to > > hold manufacturers liable for the damages caused by their vehicles' > > emissions. > > >--> > > >-->The lawsuit also names Chrysler Motors Corp., the U.S. arm of > > Germany's DaimlerChrysler, and the North American units of Honda Motor Co. > > and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. > > >--> > > >--> > > http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50900&id=2006092013200002493097 > > >--> > > >-->---- > > >--> > > > > >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >-->** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > > >-->Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > >-->** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > > > > >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >--> > > >--> > > >--> > > >-->Don't You Love Mistyping URL's.... > > > > >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >-->....when they turn out to be pretty neat. > > >--> > > >-->In this case I was trying for Engadget.com, and instead wound up at > > www.edgadget.com which appears to have lots of Newton software. > > >--> > > >--> - ProfessorF from the UK pcpro/macuser forum > > >--> > > >-->--------------------------------- > > >-->Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! > > Small Business. > > >--> > > > > ---- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->"THE SKY IS FALLING!!!" kersplunk >-->Well, not really. Agenda is right. JOHN FOR PRESIDENT!!! hey, we tried that with Ross... didn't work. :( >-->BTW, don't feel too guilty about not changing your brake fluid; I >-->think that's the majority of people. Besides, you lose a lot when you >-->have to bleed for one reason or another, and that helps. with disc brakes it's so easy to swap the pads, not like the old days with drum brakes... :) john >--> >-->Speaking of which, I'm keeping my fingers crossed on the brakes at >-->this point....they are working fine, and I'm not noticing as much >-->fluid leakage....maybe the o-rings will reseat. (At least until I can >-->figure out how to get my parts car to where I am.....) >--> >-->Jason >--> >-->---ORIGINAL MESSAGE--- >--> >-->thinking about this, this lawsuit could expose some of >-->the weakness in these arguments... we simply do not have >-->enough data to understand if there really is global warming >-->or if this is just part of a normal meterological cylce. >-->We have what, 100, 150 years of data? What's that in >-->relation to the percentage of time according to your world view? >--> >-->this is chicken little territory, more emotion than fact. wild >-->speculation with an agenda. what are the real facts? >--> >-->let's hope the auto industry employs real scientists to >-->deal with this logically instead of emotionally. >--> >-->john >--> >--> >-->On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Ed Kummel wrote: >--> >-->>-->Didn't we already have a lawsuit like this...and it failed? It was >-->the fat >-->person suing McDonalds for serving food that would make him fat... >-->>--> >-->>--> Ed >-->>--> web/gadget guru >-->>--> >-->>-->john wrote: >-->>--> check this out: >-->>--> >-->>-->Offbeat News >-->>-->Wednesday, Sept. 20, 2006 >-->>-->Calif. sues 6 carmakers over greenhouse gases >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California filed suit against Ford Motor >-->Co., General >-->Motors Corp., Toyota Motor Corp. and three other carmakers on >-->Wednesday, charging that >-->greenhouse gases from their vehicles have cost the state millions of >-->dollars. >-->>--> >-->>-->State Attorney General Bill Lockyer said the lawsuit filed in U.S. >-->District >-->Court in Northern California was the first of its kind to seek to hold >-->manufacturers >-->liable for the damages caused by their vehicles' emissions. >-->>--> >-->>-->The lawsuit also names Chrysler Motors Corp., the U.S. arm of >-->Germany's >-->DaimlerChrysler, and the North American units of Honda Motor Co. and >-->Nissan Motor Co. >-->Ltd. >-->>--> >-->>-->http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp? >-->cat=50900&id=2006092013200002493097 >-->>--> >-->>-->---- >-->>--> >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->------ >-->>-->** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->>-->Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->>-->** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html >-->** >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->------ >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->Don't You Love Mistyping URL's.... >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->----- >-->>-->....when they turn out to be pretty neat. >-->>--> >-->>-->In this case I was trying for Engadget.com, and instead wound up >-->at >-->www.edgadget.com which appears to have lots of Newton software. >-->>--> >-->>--> - ProfessorF from the UK pcpro/macuser forum >-->>--> >-->>-->--------------------------------- >-->>-->Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! >-->Small >-->Business. >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->-- >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->-- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:34:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... Y'all know I got kicked out of a science class because I presented this discussion in a logical manner... I also stated that evolution was not a fact, in fact, it's not even a theory. A theory can be validated or proven. It's a belief system accepted by faith. Macroevolution has so many weaknesses scientifically it requires an incredible amount of faith. Microevolution, aka, adaptation is fine. john On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Stephen Rigley wrote: > -->John, > --> So glad to hear you say this!!! The global warming 'issues' subject is one > -->of my pet hates... ever read "State of Fear" ISBN : 0061015733 ? Worth a > -->read, it really is... for the factual content moreso than the fictional > -->story that accompanies it (altho, that is also a reasonably good read). > -->This media/politically generated hype works all across the board... remember > -->the "Killer Bees from Africa" scare in the early '80s? What happened to > -->them?? Actually.. in the '80's I remember we were told that we were entering > -->an Ice age!! > -->OK, You get where I'm coming from, I'm going to end my rant before I get > -->started or I'll ruin my day ;-) > --> > -->Steve > --> > --> > --> > -->On 9/21/06, john wrote: > -->> > -->> thinking about this, this lawsuit could expose some of > -->> the weakness in these arguments... we simply do not have > -->> enough data to understand if there really is global warming > -->> or if this is just part of a normal meterological cylce. > -->> We have what, 100, 150 years of data? What's that in > -->> relation to the percentage of time according to your world view? > -->> > -->> this is chicken little territory, more emotion than fact. wild > -->> speculation with an agenda. what are the real facts? > -->> > -->> let's hope the auto industry employs real scientists to > -->> deal with this logically instead of emotionally. > -->> > -->> john > -->> > -->> > -->> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Ed Kummel wrote: > -->> > -->> > -->Didn't we already have a lawsuit like this...and it failed? It was > -->> > -->the > -->> fat person suing McDonalds for serving food that would make him fat... > -->> > --> > -->> > --> Ed > -->> > --> web/gadget guru > -->> > --> > -->> > -->john wrote: > -->> > --> check this out: > -->> > --> > -->> > -->Offbeat News > -->> > -->Wednesday, Sept. 20, 2006 > -->> > -->Calif. sues 6 carmakers over greenhouse gases > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> > -->SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California filed suit against Ford Motor > -->> Co., General Motors Corp., Toyota Motor Corp. and three other carmakers on > -->> Wednesday, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have cost > -->> the > -->> state millions of dollars. > -->> > --> > -->> > -->State Attorney General Bill Lockyer said the lawsuit filed in U.S. > -->> District Court in Northern California was the first of its kind to seek to > -->> hold manufacturers liable for the damages caused by their vehicles' > -->> emissions. > -->> > --> > -->> > -->The lawsuit also names Chrysler Motors Corp., the U.S. arm of > -->> Germany's DaimlerChrysler, and the North American units of Honda Motor Co. > -->> and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50900&id=2006092013200002493097 > -->> > --> > -->> > -->---- > -->> > --> > -->> > -->> > -->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -->> > -->** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > -->> > -->Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > -->> > -->** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > -->> > -->> > -->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> > --> > -->> > -->Don't You Love Mistyping URL's.... > -->> > -->> > -->------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -->> > -->....when they turn out to be pretty neat. > -->> > --> > -->> > -->In this case I was trying for Engadget.com, and instead wound up at > -->> www.edgadget.com which appears to have lots of Newton software. > -->> > --> > -->> > --> - ProfessorF from the UK pcpro/macuser forum > -->> > --> > -->> > -->--------------------------------- > -->> > -->Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! > -->> Small Business. > -->> > --> > -->> > -->> ---- > -->> > -->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > -->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > -->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > -->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -->> > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:49:43 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... This isn't about science at all. The key here is that science acknowledges that it doesn't know what actually happens, readily accepts alternate theories, and when the leading theory is debunked it is celebrated and nobody gets burned at the stake. That's the difference between blind belief and educated belief. Educated believers are willing to be challenged, and accept anything that has sufficient evidence. The processes involved in change that happens over millennia, be they issues of climate, changes in biological stucture, or even the geological makeup of the planet, cannot be observed accurately and totally by a single human observer, and cannot be reproduced in a laboratory. It is pointless therefore to use scientific theory about these long-term phenomena to advance political adgendas. By all means these things should be studied, theories and postulations thought, taught, discussed and argued - in the scientific realm. NOT in the political realm however. The best commentary I have seen on the subject, without the shrill political voices normally associated with such debate, is here: Farago points out quite well the (unintended) consequences that face the anti-car line of political thought. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re: I think we need a reality check... interesting blog, http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2296 thanx... the current "world view" of many does reflect an agenda... we don't always see it so clearly... they're subtle, most of the time... the other thought raised in this blog is the idea of conspiracies... you know like so and so was on the grassy knoll, or that the evil corporations killed off 100mpg cars or that the government planned the attack on the twin towers (dang, most of our government workers can't seem to figure out basic stuff, and we expect them to concoct some evil plan and hide their evidence???), or that there is some secret society that intends to take over the world... folks have to realize that people simply aren't that smart... we must remember Ockham's Razor (or Occam's razor)... "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" or "plurality should not be posited without necessity." which also translates as ``entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily''. Bottom line: the simplest or most obvious explanation of several competing ones is the one that should be preferred until it is proven wrong. john On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, chuck goolsbee wrote: This isn't about science at all. The key here is that science acknowledges that it doesn't know what actually happens, readily accepts alternate theories, and when the leading theory is debunked it is celebrated and nobody gets burned at the stake. That's the difference between blind belief and educated belief. Educated believers are willing to be challenged, and accept anything that has sufficient evidence. The processes involved in change that happens over millennia, be they issues of climate, changes in biological stucture, or even the geological makeup of the planet, cannot be observed accurately and totally by a single human observer, and cannot be reproduced in a laboratory. It is pointless therefore to use scientific theory about these long-term phenomena to advance political adgendas. By all means these things should be studied, theories and postulations thought, taught, discussed and argued - in the scientific realm. NOT in the political realm however. The best commentary I have seen on the subject, without the shrill political voices normally associated with such debate, is here: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2296 Farago points out quite well the (unintended) consequences that face the anti-car line of political thought. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2249 **********************************