From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Tue Oct 17 19:38:45 2006 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, October 18 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2276 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Fwd: Re: [db] brake query Re: [db] brake query Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:56:49 +1300 From: Euan Subject: Re: [db] brake query Hi I'm a long-time lurker on this list. I'm definitely in favour of John's idiot's-guide-to-rotor-changing proposal. My 1985 300TD has been cursed with pulsing brakes for just about the last half of its 200K mile life. New pads and rotors have temporarily fixed the problem but it's usually back after about 2000-3000 miles running. So, I'm also interested to know if there's a fix I haven't tried yet. New callipers? Thanks guys Euan Kennedy Christchurch NZ 1985 300TD 5-spd manual 203K miles >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:37:17 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] brake query another possibility is we could walk Susan through a brake shoe swap all on her own! she'll graduate from a visa mechanic to a shadetree mechanic... shadetree not included or required... some assembly required, batteries not included... we could have someone take pictures showing which pins or bolts to remove, what tools are needed, and so on... this is a pretty easy job... I think my record for doing the brake pads on a 123 is right around 20 minutes for all four corners... :) doing a rotor replacement and pads on my 124 took just under an hour... john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] brake query nope, the power-slotted, or power-slotted cross-drilled rotors found the picture: http://JohnMeister.com/fotos/2004/Misc-June-04/shadowfax-new-rotors.jpg here's where I bought mine: http://www.performanceproducts.com/ some random googled links: other links: http://www.powerslot.com/ http://www.car-stuff.com/powerslotbrakes.htm http://www.performancemarket.com/brand/power_slot.html http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/ on a WJ: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-brakes/ALL-WJ-front-disc-P731.jpg On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Euan wrote: > -->Hi > --> > -->I'm a long-time lurker on this list. > --> > -->I'm definitely in favour of John's idiot's-guide-to-rotor-changing proposal. > -->My 1985 300TD has been cursed with pulsing brakes for just about the last > -->half of its 200K mile life. New pads and rotors have temporarily fixed the > -->problem but it's usually back after about 2000-3000 miles running. So, I'm > -->also interested to know if there's a fix I haven't tried yet. New callipers? > --> > -->Thanks guys > --> > -->Euan Kennedy > -->Christchurch > -->NZ > --> > -->1985 300TD 5-spd manual > -->203K miles > --> > --> > --> > -->> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:37:17 -0700 (PDT) > -->From: john > -->Subject: Re: [db] brake query > --> > -->another possibility is we could walk Susan through a brake shoe swap all on > -->her own! she'll graduate from a visa mechanic to a shadetree mechanic... > -->shadetree > -->not included or required... some assembly required, batteries not > -->included... > --> > -->we could have someone take pictures showing which pins or bolts to remove, > -->what > -->tools are needed, and so on... > -->this is a pretty easy job... I think my record for doing the brake pads on a > -->123 > -->is right around 20 minutes for all four corners... :) > -->doing a rotor replacement and pads on my 124 took just under an hour... > --> > -->john > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] brake query > Ok, when I introduced myself back in July, I confessed I was gonna be > a Visa mechanic, and some kind soul said you'd help me keep my > mechanic honest, even if that mechanic wasn't me. > > I need brakes done: inspection report said pads & rotors on the front, > and pads on the rear. > > The fellow I just talked to on the phone (and I'm trying hard not to > be swayed by his sexy Brit accent ;-) told me "they" often find that > if the rotors aren't replaced at the same time that there's a "lip" > [didn't think to ask on what] that can cause pulsations. > > 1. Is this BS designed to seduce a credulous grrl into spending money > she doesn't need to spend? *** I suspect it is. I can not imagine a rotor lip causing pulsations. If it's not pulsating with the old shoes it won't pulsate with the new ones. Pulsation is caused by WARPED rotors. A few months ago I had my cargo van in the shop for some tire work, and while it was on the lift they looked at the brakes. The ole "Free safety inspection". The counterman informed me that my shoes were down to the "last 10 percent" and the friction material was "paper thin". Instead of paying them (insert ungodly sum here) to do a brake job, I went down to the McParts and bought a set of brake shoes for $25. When I got them apart, there was still a good 1/3 thickness left on the old pads. Nowhere near the "paper thin" that I'd been told. Probably a good 10,000 miles left on them. I was pissed. But since I was there with parts and tools and things were already apart, I changed them anyway. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:24:48 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] brake query >nope, the power-slotted, or power-slotted cross-drilled rotors You know John, those holes and slots just make them weaker. Vented rotors are fine, but those drilled things are a waste of $$ on a street car. >found the picture: > >http://JohnMeister.com/fotos/2004/Misc-June-04/shadowfax-new-rotors.jpg Wedging a combination wrench into your calipers does wonders for stopping distance but could really hinder your acceleration! ;) Seriously though... I agree that brake work is the truly low hanging fruit of the rip-off mechanic. It is also not that tough to do yourself, however it is very important to know what you are doing as without brakes, your car is just a guided missile. If mechanic #1 says your brakes need work, get a second opinion. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:33:39 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] brake query Euan: In my experience, pulsing brake pedals has always meant a warped front rotor or both of them warped. I suppose a bad bearing (real bad) could produce similar effect but this is sure to show up with worn tread patterns on the tyres before long and with many old cars behind me, have not seen bad bearings causing the pulsing. I have also found that there can be a world of difference in the quality of brake disks that are approved for (fill in the model here) cars. New out of the box Chinese made replacement rotors have been known to warp at the first long hill, but then so have name brand units (probably from China or Brazil or Mexico). The best solution I find is to locate quality vented or cross drilled types for the vehicle and install them with new pads. The calliper very rarely is the culprit in pulsing, even with a loose calliper, it self alligns to the rotor when pressure is applied, you get binding or clunking if it moves improperly on the mounting bolts/pins. If you have a binding piston, your car will tend to pull to one side, check the calliper opposide the direction of pull.. The warping of disks is from excess heat that is not dissipated evenly, poor metallurgy in the cast iron is the main culprit. I spent 7 years sourcing this kind of material in China and know first hand what goes on in the foundries. Good luck with the repair. Edward Euan wrote: > Hi > > I'm a long-time lurker on this list. > > I'm definitely in favour of John's idiot's-guide-to-rotor-changing > proposal. > My 1985 300TD has been cursed with pulsing brakes for just about the > last half of its 200K mile life. New pads and rotors have temporarily > fixed the problem but it's usually back after about 2000-3000 miles > running. So, I'm also interested to know if there's a fix I haven't > tried yet. New callipers? > > Thanks guys > > Euan Kennedy > Christchurch > NZ > > 1985 300TD 5-spd manual > 203K miles > > > >>> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:37:17 -0700 (PDT) >> > From: john > Subject: Re: [db] brake query > > another possibility is we could walk Susan through a brake shoe swap > all on > her own! she'll graduate from a visa mechanic to a shadetree > mechanic... shadetree > not included or required... some assembly required, batteries not > included... > > we could have someone take pictures showing which pins or bolts to > remove, what > tools are needed, and so on... > this is a pretty easy job... I think my record for doing the brake > pads on a 123 > is right around 20 minutes for all four corners... :) > doing a rotor replacement and pads on my 124 took just under an hour... > > john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:52:24 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] brake query Susan Bernick wrote: > Ok, when I introduced myself back in July, I confessed I was gonna be > a Visa mechanic, and some kind soul said you'd help me keep my > mechanic honest, even if that mechanic wasn't me. > > I need brakes done: inspection report said pads & rotors on the front, > and pads on the rear. > > The fellow I just talked to on the phone (and I'm trying hard not to > be swayed by his sexy Brit accent ;-) told me "they" often find that > if the rotors aren't replaced at the same time that there's a "lip" > [didn't think to ask on what] that can cause pulsations. > > 1. Is this BS designed to seduce a credulous grrl into spending money > she doesn't need to spend? > 2. Anyone able to translate this somewhat cryptic remark into a more > complete explanation? > > Susan Having read all the responses to date, I agree that: The lip on the rotor cannot possibly cause pulsing, since it does not contact the pads. Short of severe grooving caused by metal-to-metal contact of the pad backing with the rotor (you can hear that this is happening very easily), the irregularities caused by wear of the rotor by the pad are no big deal. Rotors on the W123 are solid and would not be worn below specs for a good long time...probably 300-400k miles or more. W126 rotors are slotted and I just had to replace my front ones on the '85 300SD at about 252k miles. Replacing pads is a quick and inexpensive job compared to replacing or turning rotors. Turning rotors that are not warped will actually increase the probability of warping. The lip contributes substantially to the strength of the rotor. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA '85 300SD Turbo '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '97 7.3L F250 HD 4WD Crew Cab - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/478 - Release Date: 10/17/2006 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:58:06 -0700 From: "Susan Bernick" Subject: Re: [db] brake query Greg: > Having read all the responses to date, I agree that: > > The lip on the rotor cannot possibly cause pulsing, since it does not > contact the pads. There is currently no pulsing. Brakes are feeling a bit "soft" -- and I wouldn't want to have to stop in an extreme hurry -- but they work just fine. and the yellow "do something soonish" light is on and has been for a couple hundred miles. > Short of severe grooving caused by metal-to-metal contact of the pad > backing with the rotor (you can hear that this is happening very > easily), the irregularities caused by wear of the rotor by the pad are > no big deal. no sound > > Rotors on the W123 are solid and would not be worn below specs for a > good long time...probably 300-400k miles or more. I know they've already been replaced in the front once already, within the last 3 years. This was a shadetree job done by jack, currently in Egypt and the guy I bought the car from. > > W126 rotors are slotted and I just had to replace my front ones on the > '85 300SD at about 252k miles. as I wrote Ben off list, I don't have 100% certainty which chassis I have. thanks, Greg. More ammunition/confidence to ask the necessary questions. Susan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: ben maples Subject: Fwd: Re: [db] brake query The yellow light is the pad wear indicators, "Slapping pads on" creates un even braking surfaces & until the new pads wear into the grooves an unexpected panic stop could cause vehicle to pull one way & on a rainy surface could cause you to loose control. If I can't feel the uneveness with my thumbnail & there's no pulse in pedal or vibration in steering wheel then & only then would I consider just slapping pads on a car that I would be driving not to mention a customer & the wheel bearings should be repacked which I would do while the rotor is turning. If I replace rotors I use quality rotors not chinese I use Wagner rotors [usually made in USA or Germany] & haven't had one warp yet. Note: forwarded message attached. X-Apparently-To: maplesfortworth-at-sbcglobal.net via 209.191.86.172; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:58:38 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [192.94.170.8] Authentication-Results: mta116.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com from=digest.net; domainkeys=fail (bad syntax) Received: from 207.115.36.49 (EHLO nlpi020.sbcis.sbc.com) (207.115.36.49) by mta116.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:58:38 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [192.94.170.8] Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by nlpi020.sbcis.sbc.com (8.13.8 inb/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9I1vP5m010852 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:57:25 -0500 Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 4.52) id 1Ga0hT-0004y2-Fj for diesel-benz-out-at-digest.net; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:58:31 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bPxWd9hJsLq+NMsV77yegnGZqUAsiT+Lgsr2/8hp/YPeWSMmMOIihBHh9wLbxs3FC4y0eDeYWv9/vSywrW+loKQg3vFoOuu55lQczBf1GTw5kmug72SFiii1Bb85a5noN3tbOKsnKg9+j67ybhWprv3hAm2MGK/0m4ProDMyTPQ= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:58:06 -0700 From: "Susan Bernick" To: "Greg Fiorentino" , "Benz List" Subject: Re: [db] brake query In-Reply-To: <453588D8.8070802-at-dslnorthwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <5c0fd00610171435s455a4ebeja9c897c3d5d0586b-at-mail.gmail.com> <453588D8.8070802-at-dslnorthwest.net> Sender: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Content-Length: 716 Greg: > Having read all the responses to date, I agree that: > > The lip on the rotor cannot possibly cause pulsing, since it does not > contact the pads. There is currently no pulsing. Brakes are feeling a bit "soft" -- and I wouldn't want to have to stop in an extreme hurry -- but they work just fine. and the yellow "do something soonish" light is on and has been for a couple hundred miles. > Short of severe grooving caused by metal-to-metal contact of the pad > backing with the rotor (you can hear that this is happening very > easily), the irregularities caused by wear of the rotor by the pad are > no big deal. no sound > > Rotors on the W123 are solid and would not be worn below specs for a > good long time...probably 300-400k miles or more. I know they've already been replaced in the front once already, within the last 3 years. This was a shadetree job done by jack, currently in Egypt and the guy I bought the car from. > > W126 rotors are slotted and I just had to replace my front ones on the > '85 300SD at about 252k miles. as I wrote Ben off list, I don't have 100% certainty which chassis I have. thanks, Greg. More ammunition/confidence to ask the necessary questions. Susan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] brake query if you do the pad swap watch out for overflowing brake fluid in the reservoir... :) it's possible that the soft feel could be an indication of a soon to fail master cylinder... when the fluid gets low and the calipers extended that's when they usually start leaking/failing... just remember to pump the brakes if the pedal goes to the floor... it'll be ok, you can pump it back up... :) (sorry, not meaning to frighten you or anything... it's probably fine...) john On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Susan Bernick wrote: > -->Greg: > -->> Having read all the responses to date, I agree that: > -->> > -->> The lip on the rotor cannot possibly cause pulsing, since it does not > -->> contact the pads. > --> > -->There is currently no pulsing. Brakes are feeling a bit "soft" -- and > -->I wouldn't want to have to stop in an extreme hurry -- but they work > -->just fine. and the yellow "do something soonish" light is on and has > -->been for a couple hundred miles. > --> > -->> Short of severe grooving caused by metal-to-metal contact of the pad > -->> backing with the rotor (you can hear that this is happening very > -->> easily), the irregularities caused by wear of the rotor by the pad are > -->> no big deal. > --> > -->no sound > -->> > -->> Rotors on the W123 are solid and would not be worn below specs for a > -->> good long time...probably 300-400k miles or more. > --> > -->I know they've already been replaced in the front once already, within > -->the last 3 years. This was a shadetree job done by jack, currently in > -->Egypt and the guy I bought the car from. > -->> > -->> W126 rotors are slotted and I just had to replace my front ones on the > -->> '85 300SD at about 252k miles. > --> > -->as I wrote Ben off list, I don't have 100% certainty which chassis I have. > --> > -->thanks, Greg. More ammunition/confidence to ask the necessary questions. > --> > -->Susan > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2276 **********************************