From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 20 12:55:44 2006 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, December 20 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2332 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point Re: [db] CRD (Mercedes) in a Grand Cherokee? [db] Biodiesel Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point [db] Re: Biodiesel Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:00:40 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point good info; thanks! rapeseed (Canola) is supposed to be some of the best for our purposes, and allegedly in wide use across the EU... 'twould be great if we could confirm this was indeed what was being used. cheers! e J.B. Hebert wrote: > I'm sure it varies from restaurant to restaurant, so I can't say for > sure. We provide them with clean 5 gallon buckets, but on occasion > they donate their containers, and often they are canola oil (rape > seed) containers. > > J.B. > > At 01:29 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: > >> hi! >> >> any idea what kind of oil that vegetable oil is? i've found local >> restaurants using Linseed, Cottonseed, and others,... all of which i >> believe work better than Soy oil for making fuel with lower cloud/gel >> points,... >> one trick i've seen is to ask the restaurants to supply you the >> oil by putting it back into the containers it came in, so you get an >> idea of what they're using and if it changes. >> >> >> cheers! >> e >> >> >> J.B. Hebert wrote: >>> Hello: >>> >>> I use vegetable oil from various restaurants in the area. I'm sure >>> there are still trace amounts of Methanol in my fuel (probably less >>> than 5%) but we've gotten our formula down pretty well so that we're >>> using the absolute minimum of Methanol to still get a complete >>> reaction. >>> >>> J.B. >>> >>> At 01:07 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: >>> >>>> hi! >>>> >>>> would be curious to know what your fuel stock is (i believe mine >>>> was Soy; not the best!), and if you're certain you have an >>>> effective Methanol recovery in your process. >>>> >>>> >>>> cheers! >>>> e >>>> >>>> >>>> J.B. Hebert wrote: >>>>> I have run straight B100 (produced in my basement) down to 14 >>>>> degrees without any change in starting or running behavior. Below >>>>> that, the car will start but acts like you describe below. At >>>>> that point I start mixing in around 30% diesel since the higher >>>>> viscosity of the gelled fuel raises fuel system pressures and >>>>> could damage seals, lines, etc. >>>>> >>>>> J.B. >>>>> >>>>> At 12:51 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> hi! >>>>>> >>>>>> did a little experimenting recently and thought i'd share some >>>>>> of the observations for the benefit of any/all. >>>>>> >>>>>> firstly, Helga is an '85 300D with almost 160K miles, and has >>>>>> been using almost exclusively commercially purchased BioD for ~3 >>>>>> years/40K miles. the fuel is commercially produced from recycled >>>>>> oil stock (i believe the current stock was used for frying potato >>>>>> chips, but i may be mistaken.) >>>>>> >>>>>> on a recent trip to the Sierra, i decided to try straight >>>>>> B99/100 purchased from our favorite local supplier, just to see >>>>>> how the vehicle would react to the low temps since i had the >>>>>> luxury of convenient support should i need it. >>>>>> after sitting for a few days with temps near freezing, it >>>>>> started up perfectly; a single Glow cycle resulted in an >>>>>> immediate smoke-free start and a smooth idle, as is normal for >>>>>> this car. power, however, was lower than it usually is when cold >>>>>> as i started up the hill out the driveway, to the extent i found >>>>>> i had the accelerator floored just to keep it moving. out of >>>>>> curiosity, i tried revving it in Neutral, and found i could only >>>>>> get about 2K RPM on it maximum! >>>>>> even after coolant temp had reached normal indicated range >>>>>> (80C+), Max RPMs were still only about 2K RPM for about the first >>>>>> 10-15 minutes of use; fortunately, this was enough to suit the >>>>>> needs in the small town we were in. it wasn't until we'd gotten >>>>>> several miles farther down the road that it rev'd freely as normal. >>>>>> >>>>>> my theory is that although the fuel had not gelled completely, >>>>>> it had gelled enough that there was enough occlusion in the fuel >>>>>> system that it wouldn't allow full fuel flow until things had >>>>>> warmed up. were i to head into the same conditions again, i'll >>>>>> probably top off with #2 Dino before stopping, just to try to >>>>>> lower the Gel Point of the fuel a bit. >>>>>> >>>>>> fortunately my wife tends to have a bit of an adventurous >>>>>> nature, or this could have been much less fun! (the dog napped >>>>>> serenely in the rear seat the entire time, knowing nothing of the >>>>>> fun we were having; only that we were going home,...) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers! >>>>>> e >>>>>> >>>>>> Berkeley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>>>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: >>>>>> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM >>>>> >>>>> J.B. Hebert >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>>> Current Vehicles: >>>>> >>>>> '76 Ford Bronco >>>>> '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 >>>>> '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe >>>>> '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) >>>>> '93 GMC Sierra 2500 >>>>> '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: >>>> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: >> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM > > J.B. Hebert > > ---------------------------------------------- > Current Vehicles: > > '76 Ford Bronco > '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 > '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe > '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) > '93 GMC Sierra 2500 > '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:38:11 -0600 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: [db] CRD (Mercedes) in a Grand Cherokee? Found the US reference at http://www.jeep.com/jeep_life/news/jeep/diesel.html. "The new 3.0-liter CRD engine , built by Mercedes-Benz, produces 215 hp (160 kW) -at- 3800 rpm and 376 lb.-ft. torque (510 N7m) -at- 1600-2800 rpm and gets an estimated fuel economy of 19 miles city and 23 miles highway." The press release is dated June 1, 2006, and mentions, "The Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD will be manufactured at the Jefferson North Assembly Plant in Detroit. The 3.0-liter CRD engine is built at the Mercedes-Benz Berlin Marienfelde Plant in Berlin, Germany. Pricing will be announced closer to availability." Couldn't find any other pricing or availability info, but did find a mention that both the 5.7 liter HEMI and this 3.0 liter V-6 turbodiesel made the Ward's 10 Best Engines list, and both engines are available in the 2007 Grand Cherokee. Alec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:03:02 -0700 From: "Bob Hamilton" Subject: [db] Biodiesel Interesting stuff. Three things: First, here is an article from today in our local paper re: biodiesel in Canada: http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=13e41278-ae68-494b-b bf4-e7c9af383ce4 Second, canola and rapeseed are two different beasts. Related but different. Rapeseed has been around for millennia. Canola was created by plant breeding in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan back in the 70's and took some of the undesirable, non edible traits out of rapeseed. It then became a very good edible oil with excellent health properties and was given a new name: canola. It is grown extensively in this part of the world. It is the oil of choice at most restaurants around here doing any deep frying. Third, what do I have to do to start using vegetable oil in my 83 300D? I guess a few related questions are: What is B100, B99, #2 Dino? ..... Bob - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of J.B. Hebert Sent: December 20, 2006 11:03 AM To: ernestb-at-BackYardEngineering.org Cc: Diesel Benz Subject: Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point I have run straight B100 (produced in my basement) down to 14 degrees without any change in starting or running behavior. Below that, the car will start but acts like you describe below. At that point I start mixing in around 30% diesel since the higher viscosity of the gelled fuel raises fuel system pressures and could damage seals, lines, etc. J.B. At 12:51 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: >hi! > > did a little experimenting recently and thought i'd share some > of the observations for the benefit of any/all. > > firstly, Helga is an '85 300D with almost 160K miles, and has > been using almost exclusively commercially purchased BioD for ~3 > years/40K miles. the fuel is commercially produced from recycled > oil stock (i believe the current stock was used for frying potato > chips, but i may be mistaken.) > > on a recent trip to the Sierra, i decided to try straight > B99/100 purchased from our favorite local supplier, just to see how > the vehicle would react to the low temps since i had the luxury of > convenient support should i need it. > after sitting for a few days with temps near freezing, it > started up perfectly; a single Glow cycle resulted in an immediate > smoke-free start and a smooth idle, as is normal for this car. > power, however, was lower than it usually is when cold as i started > up the hill out the driveway, to the extent i found i had the > accelerator floored just to keep it moving. out of curiosity, i > tried revving it in Neutral, and found i could only get about 2K > RPM on it maximum! > even after coolant temp had reached normal indicated range > (80C+), Max RPMs were still only about 2K RPM for about the first > 10-15 minutes of use; fortunately, this was enough to suit the > needs in the small town we were in. it wasn't until we'd gotten > several miles farther down the road that it rev'd freely as normal. > > my theory is that although the fuel had not gelled completely, > it had gelled enough that there was enough occlusion in the fuel > system that it wouldn't allow full fuel flow until things had > warmed up. were i to head into the same conditions again, i'll > probably top off with #2 Dino before stopping, just to try to lower > the Gel Point of the fuel a bit. > > fortunately my wife tends to have a bit of an adventurous > nature, or this could have been much less fun! (the dog napped > serenely in the rear seat the entire time, knowing nothing of the > fun we were having; only that we were going home,...) > > >cheers! >e > >Berkeley > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: >12/19/2006 1:17 PM J.B. Hebert - ---------------------------------------------- Current Vehicles: '76 Ford Bronco '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) '93 GMC Sierra 2500 '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: 12/19/2006 1:17 PM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:31:07 -0500 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point Living here in the MidWest gelling of biodiesel is of great concern for me. I want to brew my own and run B100 in my truck. But that leaves half the year that I'd have trouble running B100. So I'll need to blend it with dinodiesel. The conclusion that I came to after doing some research was that rapeseed (Canola) is indeed the best source to start with. It produces the most energy per gallon. However, I found that the lowest temp I could go to before clowding was just below freezing or around 30 degrees. How J.B. is getting ANY flow at 14 degrees is contradictory to all the data I found. Since I have dual tanks on my truck I'd consider one tank of B100 for days above 14 and one tank of #2 (or B20) for colder days. Just my $.02... Jim > good info; thanks! > > rapeseed (Canola) is supposed to be some of the best for our > purposes, and allegedly in wide use across the EU... 'twould be great if > we could confirm this was indeed what was being used. > > > cheers! > e > > > J.B. Hebert wrote: > > I'm sure it varies from restaurant to restaurant, so I can't say for > > sure. We provide them with clean 5 gallon buckets, but on occasion > > they donate their containers, and often they are canola oil (rape > > seed) containers. > > > > J.B. > > > > At 01:29 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: > > > >> hi! > >> > >> any idea what kind of oil that vegetable oil is? i've found local > >> restaurants using Linseed, Cottonseed, and others,... all of which i > >> believe work better than Soy oil for making fuel with lower cloud/gel > >> points,... > >> one trick i've seen is to ask the restaurants to supply you the > >> oil by putting it back into the containers it came in, so you get an > >> idea of what they're using and if it changes. > >> > >> > >> cheers! > >> e > >> > >> > >> J.B. Hebert wrote: > >>> Hello: > >>> > >>> I use vegetable oil from various restaurants in the area. I'm sure > >>> there are still trace amounts of Methanol in my fuel (probably less > >>> than 5%) but we've gotten our formula down pretty well so that we're > >>> using the absolute minimum of Methanol to still get a complete > >>> reaction. > >>> > >>> J.B. > >>> > >>> At 01:07 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: > >>> > >>>> hi! > >>>> > >>>> would be curious to know what your fuel stock is (i believe mine > >>>> was Soy; not the best!), and if you're certain you have an > >>>> effective Methanol recovery in your process. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> cheers! > >>>> e > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> J.B. Hebert wrote: > >>>>> I have run straight B100 (produced in my basement) down to 14 > >>>>> degrees without any change in starting or running behavior. Below > >>>>> that, the car will start but acts like you describe below. At > >>>>> that point I start mixing in around 30% diesel since the higher > >>>>> viscosity of the gelled fuel raises fuel system pressures and > >>>>> could damage seals, lines, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>> J.B. > >>>>> > >>>>> At 12:51 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> hi! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> did a little experimenting recently and thought i'd share some > >>>>>> of the observations for the benefit of any/all. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> firstly, Helga is an '85 300D with almost 160K miles, and has > >>>>>> been using almost exclusively commercially purchased BioD for ~3 > >>>>>> years/40K miles. the fuel is commercially produced from recycled > >>>>>> oil stock (i believe the current stock was used for frying potato > >>>>>> chips, but i may be mistaken.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> on a recent trip to the Sierra, i decided to try straight > >>>>>> B99/100 purchased from our favorite local supplier, just to see > >>>>>> how the vehicle would react to the low temps since i had the > >>>>>> luxury of convenient support should i need it. > >>>>>> after sitting for a few days with temps near freezing, it > >>>>>> started up perfectly; a single Glow cycle resulted in an > >>>>>> immediate smoke-free start and a smooth idle, as is normal for > >>>>>> this car. power, however, was lower than it usually is when cold > >>>>>> as i started up the hill out the driveway, to the extent i found > >>>>>> i had the accelerator floored just to keep it moving. out of > >>>>>> curiosity, i tried revving it in Neutral, and found i could only > >>>>>> get about 2K RPM on it maximum! > >>>>>> even after coolant temp had reached normal indicated range > >>>>>> (80C+), Max RPMs were still only about 2K RPM for about the first > >>>>>> 10-15 minutes of use; fortunately, this was enough to suit the > >>>>>> needs in the small town we were in. it wasn't until we'd gotten > >>>>>> several miles farther down the road that it rev'd freely as normal. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> my theory is that although the fuel had not gelled completely, > >>>>>> it had gelled enough that there was enough occlusion in the fuel > >>>>>> system that it wouldn't allow full fuel flow until things had > >>>>>> warmed up. were i to head into the same conditions again, i'll > >>>>>> probably top off with #2 Dino before stopping, just to try to > >>>>>> lower the Gel Point of the fuel a bit. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> fortunately my wife tends to have a bit of an adventurous > >>>>>> nature, or this could have been much less fun! (the dog napped > >>>>>> serenely in the rear seat the entire time, knowing nothing of the > >>>>>> fun we were having; only that we were going home,...) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> cheers! > >>>>>> e > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Berkeley > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>>>>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: > >>>>>> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM > >>>>> > >>>>> J.B. Hebert > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------- > >>>>> Current Vehicles: > >>>>> > >>>>> '76 Ford Bronco > >>>>> '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 > >>>>> '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe > >>>>> '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) > >>>>> '93 GMC Sierra 2500 > >>>>> '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: > >>>> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: > >> 12/19/2006 1:17 PM > > > > J.B. Hebert > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Current Vehicles: > > > > '76 Ford Bronco > > '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 > > '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe > > '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) > > '93 GMC Sierra 2500 > > '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ > - -- Jim Hoffman Oconomowoc WI ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:23:11 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: [db] Re: Biodiesel 1- interesting; so Canada is starting to catch up with what they've been doing in the EU for a while already, eh? wonder how much of it has to do with the trouble being experienced with the new Ultra-Low Sulfur fuels? 2- yeah, Canola, Rapeseed, most of us know,... ;-) used almost interchangeably in these discussions since the difference is negligible for these purposes, though many outside of North Amerika don't know what Canola is... ;-) 3- (funny questions for someone who was just trying to educate people who are already biofuel users! ;-) ) using Vegetable Oil as fuel is going to require modifications of the vehicle; minimally to warm the fuel up to where it can be pumped and injected properly, perhaps also to add an additional tank to allow startup/shutdown on other fuels. search around on Veggie Oil Conversions for more detail; you have a lot to consider before you just pour Veggie Oil (whether Straight Virgin or Waste/used) in the tank. B99/B100/Bxx; where xx = the percentage of BioDiesel used when mixed with regular Diesel Oil. #2; Petroleum Diesel Oil... what you're probably using now (unless you're using winterized #1/kerosene). cheers! e Bob Hamilton wrote: > > Interesting stuff. Three things: > > > > First, here is an article from today in our local paper re: biodiesel > in Canada: > > > > http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=13e41278-ae68-494b-bbf4-e7c9af383ce4 > > > > Second, canola and rapeseed are two different beasts. Related but > different. Rapeseed has been around for millennia. Canola was > created by plant breeding in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan back in the 70's > and took some of the undesirable, non edible traits out of rapeseed. > It then became a very good edible oil with excellent health properties > and was given a new name: canola. It is grown extensively in this > part of the world. It is the oil of choice at most restaurants around > here doing any deep frying. > > > > Third, what do I have to do to start using vegetable oil in my 83 > 300D? I guess a few related questions are: What is B100, B99, #2 > Dino? ..... Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of J.B. Hebert > Sent: December 20, 2006 11:03 AM > To: ernestb-at-BackYardEngineering.org > Cc: Diesel Benz > Subject: Re: [db] Biodiesel Cold Weather Data Point > > > > I have run straight B100 (produced in my basement) down to 14 degrees > > without any change in starting or running behavior. Below that, the > > car will start but acts like you describe below. At that point I > > start mixing in around 30% diesel since the higher viscosity of the > > gelled fuel raises fuel system pressures and could damage seals, > lines, etc. > > > > J.B. > > > > At 12:51 PM 12/20/2006, you wrote: > > > > >hi! > > > > > > did a little experimenting recently and thought i'd share some > > > of the observations for the benefit of any/all. > > > > > > firstly, Helga is an '85 300D with almost 160K miles, and has > > > been using almost exclusively commercially purchased BioD for ~3 > > > years/40K miles. the fuel is commercially produced from recycled > > > oil stock (i believe the current stock was used for frying potato > > > chips, but i may be mistaken.) > > > > > > on a recent trip to the Sierra, i decided to try straight > > > B99/100 purchased from our favorite local supplier, just to see how > > > the vehicle would react to the low temps since i had the luxury of > > > convenient support should i need it. > > > after sitting for a few days with temps near freezing, it > > > started up perfectly; a single Glow cycle resulted in an immediate > > > smoke-free start and a smooth idle, as is normal for this car. > > > power, however, was lower than it usually is when cold as i started > > > up the hill out the driveway, to the extent i found i had the > > > accelerator floored just to keep it moving. out of curiosity, i > > > tried revving it in Neutral, and found i could only get about 2K > > > RPM on it maximum! > > > even after coolant temp had reached normal indicated range > > > (80C+), Max RPMs were still only about 2K RPM for about the first > > > 10-15 minutes of use; fortunately, this was enough to suit the > > > needs in the small town we were in. it wasn't until we'd gotten > > > several miles farther down the road that it rev'd freely as normal. > > > > > > my theory is that although the fuel had not gelled completely, > > > it had gelled enough that there was enough occlusion in the fuel > > > system that it wouldn't allow full fuel flow until things had > > > warmed up. were i to head into the same conditions again, i'll > > > probably top off with #2 Dino before stopping, just to try to lower > > > the Gel Point of the fuel a bit. > > > > > > fortunately my wife tends to have a bit of an adventurous > > > nature, or this could have been much less fun! (the dog napped > > > serenely in the rear seat the entire time, knowing nothing of the > > > fun we were having; only that we were going home,...) > > > > > > > > >cheers! > > >e > > > > > >Berkeley > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: > > >12/19/2006 1:17 PM > > > > J.B. Hebert > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Current Vehicles: > > > > '76 Ford Bronco > > '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 > > '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe > > '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) > > '93 GMC Sierra 2500 > > '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date: > 12/19/2006 1:17 PM ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2332 **********************************