From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jan 4 09:26:36 2007 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, January 4 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2348 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] Re: Re2: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] Jason!!!! Re: [db] another gas to diesel conversion in Washington, DC RE: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] Re: Re2: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] RE: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 07:44:27 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] buy the book by Nitscke on the Mercedes... he has all the info you desire. I don't have time to look it up, have about 700 pages to "read" by tomorrow afternoon for school. john On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->Ok, well....if it would take my 240D's OM616, how much slower would it >-->be? >--> >-->In other words, what is the weight difference? Does anybody know what >-->the rear gears would be in this beast natively? >--> >-->I'll check the strutwells thoroughly for rust next time I'm in the >-->neighborhood....they looked OK last time I checked, but I was paying >-->more attention to the underbody. >--> >-->Jason >--> >-->-- john wrote: >-->the 450 SEL is one I have owned... think it's the 116 body style... >--> >-->it's a 4.5L V8 with single overhead cams... fuel injection, >-->very fussy headers that are prone to cracking and very, very, very >-->expensive to replace... did I mention the expensive header costs? >-->the timing chains should be done periodically... >--> >-->it'll perform comparable to a '68 Mustang with a 289... but >-->the Mustang will win by a slight margin... ;) >--> >-->you'll get around 16mpg if you drive it like I do... >--> >-->on the other hand you can cruise all day at 100 mph with the >-->sunroof open and throughly enjoy the ride, even without cup >-->holders. :) >--> >-->for $500 you could always part it out... >--> >-->yes, your 240d will work in it... it'll be slower than in your >-->123 because the 116 body style is heavier... but it'll work, >-->also, the rear axle ratio may be lower, so it may come off the line >-->quicker... >--> >-->The SEL indicates it's the super extra long model, with a bit more rear >-->leg room, and associated weight... >--> >-->if it has rust it is structural... they are unibody cars... check for >-->rust around the struts... saw many of the these cars sitting as >-->lowriders, >-->some on the autobahn, when the springs push through and the car drops >-->down onto the suspension... and doesn't go no more... >--> >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >--> >-->>-->You guys are going to think I'm a goon after this. I wanted that >-->wagen >-->>-->BAD, but some local guy made it go away first, which I suppose was >-->the >-->>-->goal. Still, I'm very disappointed, because like I said, I really >-->do >-->>-->need a car, and you know I loooooove my Diesel-Benz! >-->>--> >-->>-->So here's the scoop: the overpriced car by the lake is still there. >-->>-->It's not a 560SEL, it's a 450SEL. I have NO IDEA what I was >-->thinking. >-->>-->It's 1974. It does have some rust, which is actually much worse >-->than I >-->>-->remembered it, BUT it's not structural (barely) and I think that I >-->>-->could stop it fairly inexpensively before any real damage is done. >-->>--> >-->>-->WHAT IF....(I know, the two fatal words) I could get it for $500? >-->>-->Because its been for sale so long? (It says "$4500 OR BEST OFFER." >-->You >-->>-->never know.) >-->>--> >-->>-->As a 450SEL, what g*s mileage would it get natively? I don't know >-->if >-->>-->this is a V-6, V-8, or I-6, (I've never looked under the hood...not >-->>-->that serious yet) but if the mileage with WHATEVER it is was at or >-->>-->above 20/25 (city/highway) I'd seriously consider buying it (for >-->$500, >-->>-->not $4500) and just leaving it as-is mechanically for my wife to >-->use. >-->>-->(That's about the mileage that her current car gets.) >-->>--> >-->>-->ALSO, what body style is this car and would it take my '83 240D >-->motor? >-->>-->(I know this is the second time I've asked, and last time conjured >-->up >-->>-->visions of go-karts in John's mind, but maybe the 560SEL and >-->450SEL are >-->>-->totally different chassis'?) If yes, I might slap it with my 240D >-->>-->drivetrain (including the rear end?, because the gas one might be >-->too >-->>-->tall....or not?) and use it myself. >-->>--> >-->>-->I think we're going to drive up the price of popcorn........ >-->>--> >-->>-->Jason >-->>--> >--> >--> ----- >--> >-->----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->-- >--> ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->-- >--> ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:47:16 -0600 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: Re2: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] The M117 4.5 motor was a cast iron beast like the OM616 and OM617 diesels, not an alloy block like later V8s, so I would guess that engine weight difference is not significant. In 79 or 80, MB put the OM617 5 cylinder turbodiesel in the big W116 S-Class chassis for the US market only, giving us the 300SD. This may actually be a clear case where the US fuel economy requirements gave us a nice benefit. I would consider that engine to be the weakest MB diesel to provide acceptable performance in a W116. Your 240 engine has one less cylinder and no turbo, so it's bound to need some tinkering with axle ratios to be anything other than an utter slug. Then again, just being able to accurately badge it as a 240SDL (S-Class, Diesel, Long) has got to be worth some points. ;-) Alec Quoting "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" : > By the way, my only reasearch suggests that it may have 2.65:1 rear- > end ratio, which would be too high, and have to be changed out for my > 240D motor to push it. The weight looks similar, though: 34xx lbs vs. > 38xx lbs......but how much of that is motor weight? Will my 500lb > diesel motor make it a 41xx lb car? Or is it similar in weight? > > -- "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" wrote: > Ok, well....if it would take my 240D's OM616, how much slower would it > be? > > In other words, what is the weight difference? Does anybody know what > the rear gears would be in this beast natively? > > I'll check the strutwells thoroughly for rust next time I'm in the > neighborhood....they looked OK last time I checked, but I was paying > more attention to the underbody. > > Jason > > -- john wrote: > the 450 SEL is one I have owned... think it's the 116 body style... > > it's a 4.5L V8 with single overhead cams... fuel injection, > very fussy headers that are prone to cracking and very, very, very > expensive to replace... did I mention the expensive header costs? > the timing chains should be done periodically... > > it'll perform comparable to a '68 Mustang with a 289... but > the Mustang will win by a slight margin... ;) > > you'll get around 16mpg if you drive it like I do... > > on the other hand you can cruise all day at 100 mph with the > sunroof open and throughly enjoy the ride, even without cup > holders. :) > > for $500 you could always part it out... > > yes, your 240d will work in it... it'll be slower than in your > 123 because the 116 body style is heavier... but it'll work, > also, the rear axle ratio may be lower, so it may come off the line > quicker... > > The SEL indicates it's the super extra long model, with a bit more rear > leg room, and associated weight... > > if it has rust it is structural... they are unibody cars... check for > rust around the struts... saw many of the these cars sitting as > lowriders, > some on the autobahn, when the springs push through and the car drops > down onto the suspension... and doesn't go no more... > > > john > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > > >-->You guys are going to think I'm a goon after this. I wanted that > wagen > >-->BAD, but some local guy made it go away first, which I suppose was > the > >-->goal. Still, I'm very disappointed, because like I said, I really > do > >-->need a car, and you know I loooooove my Diesel-Benz! > >--> > >-->So here's the scoop: the overpriced car by the lake is still there. > >-->It's not a 560SEL, it's a 450SEL. I have NO IDEA what I was > thinking. > >-->It's 1974. It does have some rust, which is actually much worse > than I > >-->remembered it, BUT it's not structural (barely) and I think that I > >-->could stop it fairly inexpensively before any real damage is done. > >--> > >-->WHAT IF....(I know, the two fatal words) I could get it for $500? > >-->Because its been for sale so long? (It says "$4500 OR BEST OFFER." > You > >-->never know.) > >--> > >-->As a 450SEL, what g*s mileage would it get natively? I don't know > if > >-->this is a V-6, V-8, or I-6, (I've never looked under the hood...not > >-->that serious yet) but if the mileage with WHATEVER it is was at or > >-->above 20/25 (city/highway) I'd seriously consider buying it (for > $500, > >-->not $4500) and just leaving it as-is mechanically for my wife to > use. > >-->(That's about the mileage that her current car gets.) > >--> > >-->ALSO, what body style is this car and would it take my '83 240D > motor? > >-->(I know this is the second time I've asked, and last time conjured > up > >-->visions of go-karts in John's mind, but maybe the 560SEL and > 450SEL are > >-->totally different chassis'?) If yes, I might slap it with my 240D > >-->drivetrain (including the rear end?, because the gas one might be > too > >-->tall....or not?) and use it myself. > >--> > >-->I think we're going to drive up the price of popcorn........ > >--> > >-->Jason > >--> > > ----- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:02:40 -0500 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Jason!!!! Re: [db] another gas to diesel conversion in Washington, DC Why don't you go for this one?!?! > > http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/car/254999892.html > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 06:43:39 -0800 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: RE: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] >Like the disclaimer says, the ratings should be used for comparison purposes >only. Actual mileage may vary. The EPA numbers are consistently wrong in my experience. I've owned half a dozen Diesel vehicles over the years and the EPA has always rated them much lower than what I actually experienced. In the latest case, my TDI, they claim something like 39/45. I use this car as a daily driver and track my mileage on every tank, and it has NEVER seen less than 45, and consistently averages right on 50 MPG. The EPA doesn't get their numbers based on actual use, but instead some formula. They have been criticized for years on how it OVERrates many cars, and underrates others (such as ours). Apparently they will be revising their system sometime soon to deliver more realistic numbers. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: Re2: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] a friend in Sweden put a 240D engine in a Full Size Jeep Wagoneer... and added a Volvo turbo to it... john On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->The M117 4.5 motor was a cast iron beast like the OM616 and OM617 diesels, >-->not an alloy block like later V8s, so I would guess that engine weight >-->difference is not significant. >--> >-->In 79 or 80, MB put the OM617 5 cylinder turbodiesel in the big W116 S-Class >-->chassis for the US market only, giving us the 300SD. This may actually be a >-->clear case where the US fuel economy requirements gave us a nice benefit. >--> >-->I would consider that engine to be the weakest MB diesel to provide >-->acceptable performance in a W116. Your 240 engine has one less cylinder and >-->no turbo, so it's bound to need some tinkering with axle ratios to be >-->anything other than an utter slug. >--> >-->Then again, just being able to accurately badge it as a 240SDL (S-Class, >-->Diesel, Long) has got to be worth some points. ;-) >--> >-->Alec >--> >--> >-->Quoting "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" : >--> >-->> By the way, my only reasearch suggests that it may have 2.65:1 rear- >-->> end ratio, which would be too high, and have to be changed out for my >-->> 240D motor to push it. The weight looks similar, though: 34xx lbs vs. >-->> 38xx lbs......but how much of that is motor weight? Will my 500lb >-->> diesel motor make it a 41xx lb car? Or is it similar in weight? >-->> >-->> -- "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" wrote: >-->> Ok, well....if it would take my 240D's OM616, how much slower would it >-->> be? >-->> >-->> In other words, what is the weight difference? Does anybody know what >-->> the rear gears would be in this beast natively? >-->> >-->> I'll check the strutwells thoroughly for rust next time I'm in the >-->> neighborhood....they looked OK last time I checked, but I was paying >-->> more attention to the underbody. >-->> >-->> Jason >-->> >-->> -- john wrote: >-->> the 450 SEL is one I have owned... think it's the 116 body style... >-->> >-->> it's a 4.5L V8 with single overhead cams... fuel injection, >-->> very fussy headers that are prone to cracking and very, very, very >-->> expensive to replace... did I mention the expensive header costs? >-->> the timing chains should be done periodically... >-->> >-->> it'll perform comparable to a '68 Mustang with a 289... but >-->> the Mustang will win by a slight margin... ;) >-->> >-->> you'll get around 16mpg if you drive it like I do... >-->> >-->> on the other hand you can cruise all day at 100 mph with the >-->> sunroof open and throughly enjoy the ride, even without cup >-->> holders. :) >-->> >-->> for $500 you could always part it out... >-->> >-->> yes, your 240d will work in it... it'll be slower than in your >-->> 123 because the 116 body style is heavier... but it'll work, >-->> also, the rear axle ratio may be lower, so it may come off the line >-->> quicker... >-->> >-->> The SEL indicates it's the super extra long model, with a bit more rear >-->> leg room, and associated weight... >-->> >-->> if it has rust it is structural... they are unibody cars... check for >-->> rust around the struts... saw many of the these cars sitting as >-->> lowriders, >-->> some on the autobahn, when the springs push through and the car drops >-->> down onto the suspension... and doesn't go no more... >-->> >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->You guys are going to think I'm a goon after this. I wanted that >-->> wagen >-->> >-->BAD, but some local guy made it go away first, which I suppose was >-->> the >-->> >-->goal. Still, I'm very disappointed, because like I said, I really >-->> do >-->> >-->need a car, and you know I loooooove my Diesel-Benz! >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So here's the scoop: the overpriced car by the lake is still there. >-->> >-->It's not a 560SEL, it's a 450SEL. I have NO IDEA what I was >-->> thinking. >-->> >-->It's 1974. It does have some rust, which is actually much worse >-->> than I >-->> >-->remembered it, BUT it's not structural (barely) and I think that I >-->> >-->could stop it fairly inexpensively before any real damage is done. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->WHAT IF....(I know, the two fatal words) I could get it for $500? >-->> >-->Because its been for sale so long? (It says "$4500 OR BEST OFFER." >-->> You >-->> >-->never know.) >-->> >--> >-->> >-->As a 450SEL, what g*s mileage would it get natively? I don't know >-->> if >-->> >-->this is a V-6, V-8, or I-6, (I've never looked under the hood...not >-->> >-->that serious yet) but if the mileage with WHATEVER it is was at or >-->> >-->above 20/25 (city/highway) I'd seriously consider buying it (for >-->> $500, >-->> >-->not $4500) and just leaving it as-is mechanically for my wife to >-->> use. >-->> >-->(That's about the mileage that her current car gets.) >-->> >--> >-->> >-->ALSO, what body style is this car and would it take my '83 240D >-->> motor? >-->> >-->(I know this is the second time I've asked, and last time conjured >-->> up >-->> >-->visions of go-karts in John's mind, but maybe the 560SEL and >-->> 450SEL are >-->> >-->totally different chassis'?) If yes, I might slap it with my 240D >-->> >-->drivetrain (including the rear end?, because the gas one might be >-->> too >-->> >-->tall....or not?) and use it myself. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->I think we're going to drive up the price of popcorn........ >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Jason >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ----- >-->> >-->> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> -- >-->> ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> -- >--> ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:25:57 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Oh gracious me frankenWHAT? [popcorn time] I've heard that they overrate the hybrids... john On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, chuck goolsbee wrote: > -->>Like the disclaimer says, the ratings should be used for comparison > -->>purposes > -->>only. Actual mileage may vary. > --> > -->The EPA numbers are consistently wrong in my experience. I've owned half a > -->dozen Diesel vehicles over the years and the EPA has always rated them much > -->lower than what I actually experienced. In the latest case, my TDI, they > -->claim something like 39/45. I use this car as a daily driver and track my > -->mileage on every tank, and it has NEVER seen less than 45, and consistently > -->averages right on 50 MPG. > --> > -->The EPA doesn't get their numbers based on actual use, but instead some > -->formula. They have been criticized for years on how it OVERrates many cars, > -->and underrates others (such as ours). Apparently they will be revising their > -->system sometime soon to deliver more realistic numbers. > --> > --> > -->-- > -->--chuck goolsbee > -->02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD > -->arlington, wa, usa > --> > --> > --> ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://freegift.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2348 **********************************