From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Apr 12 20:18:56 2007 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, April 13 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2440 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol RE: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol RE: [db] Ethanol RE: [db] Ethanol Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) john On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving California... >--> >--> ... Huh? ... >--> >-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. The >-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. Corn is >-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. >-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I know? >-->Not only >-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of environmental hoops. >--> >-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some moved out to >-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. >--> >--> - Jerry Kaidor >--> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:29:56 GMT From: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just to escape the dire reality we create. Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to disrupt the food supply and the American economy. But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing things? Jason - -- john wrote: there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) john On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving California... >--> >--> ... Huh? ... >--> >-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. The >-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. Corn is >-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. >-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I know? >-->Not only >-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of environmental hoops. >--> >-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some moved out to >-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. >--> >--> - Jerry Kaidor >--> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:39:22 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol The problem with ethanol as a fuel is that the energy content is way lower. Also, since it is a grown fuel, fuel must be burned to harvest it, and since the energy content is low, ... well, you get the idea. Biodiesel in mass quantities has similar problems. Yes, I know about the algae research, but nobody is actually producing anything that way. People are extremely narrowminded unfortunately, and the farm lobby is quite strong. On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:29:56AM +0000, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up > about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just > to escape the dire reality we create. > > Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of > something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY > animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY > disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we > don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR > more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to > disrupt the food supply and the American economy. > > But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing > things? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:34:33 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Ethanol And I'm still trying to figure out if the powerful farm lobby is being shortsighted about this. Even if we don't use corn, if whatever crop we do use is successful, how many farmers will still switch from growing food products to growing ethanol products? Unless we can get all the ethanol input from previously unused crop land, which is admittedly possible, we're bound to end up with less food. Oh well. About all we can really do is see how it plays out. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Kevin > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 7:39 PM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol > > > The problem with ethanol as a fuel is that the energy content is way > lower. Also, since it is a grown fuel, fuel must be burned to harvest it, > and since the energy content is low, ... well, you get the idea. Biodiesel > in mass quantities has similar problems. Yes, I know about the algae > research, but nobody is actually producing anything that way. > > People are extremely narrowminded unfortunately, and the farm lobby is > quite strong. > > On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:29:56AM +0000, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > > I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up > > about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just > > to escape the dire reality we create. > > > > Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of > > something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY > > animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY > > disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we > > don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR > > more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to > > disrupt the food supply and the American economy. > > > > But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing > > things? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:24:01 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol just had another thought... why not plant corn where they grow tobacco? :) On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up >-->about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just >-->to escape the dire reality we create. >--> >-->Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of >-->something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY >-->animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY >-->disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we >-->don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR >-->more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to >-->disrupt the food supply and the American economy. >--> >-->But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing >-->things? >--> >-->Jason >--> >-->-- john wrote: >-->there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, >-->land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... >--> >-->I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >--> >-->>-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving >-->California... >-->>--> >-->>--> ... Huh? ... >-->>--> >-->>-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. >-->The >-->>-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. >-->Corn is >-->>-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. >-->>-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I >-->know? >-->>-->Not only >-->>-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of >-->environmental hoops. >-->>--> >-->>-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some >-->moved out to >-->>-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. >-->>--> >-->>--> - Jerry Kaidor >-->>--> >--> >--> ----- >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol you do realize that farmers are paid not to plant in some places... the farmers would be better one to talk with about this... there is a lot of land that's not being used ... On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up >-->about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just >-->to escape the dire reality we create. >--> >-->Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of >-->something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY >-->animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY >-->disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we >-->don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR >-->more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to >-->disrupt the food supply and the American economy. >--> >-->But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing >-->things? >--> >-->Jason >--> >-->-- john wrote: >-->there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, >-->land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... >--> >-->I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >--> >-->>-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving >-->California... >-->>--> >-->>--> ... Huh? ... >-->>--> >-->>-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. >-->The >-->>-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. >-->Corn is >-->>-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. >-->>-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I >-->know? >-->>-->Not only >-->>-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of >-->environmental hoops. >-->>--> >-->>-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some >-->moved out to >-->>-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. >-->>--> >-->>--> - Jerry Kaidor >-->>--> >--> >--> ----- >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:21:53 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Ethanol That's exactly what I was thinking about. Now if they change the program such that farmers start using that land for fuel crops, and reduce the amount we pay them to leave land idle, keeping in mind that many farmers will need a financial kickstart to be able to start using that other land.... Tricky stuff to manage well. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:23 PM > To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol > > > you do realize that farmers are paid not to plant in > some places... the farmers would be better one to > talk with about this... there is a lot of land that's > not being used ... > > On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > > >-->I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up > >-->about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just > >-->to escape the dire reality we create. > >--> > >-->Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of > >-->something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY > >-->animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY > >-->disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we > >-->don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR > >-->more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to > >-->disrupt the food supply and the American economy. > >--> > >-->But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing > >-->things? > >--> > >-->Jason > >--> > >-->-- john wrote: > >-->there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, > >-->land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... > >--> > >-->I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) > >--> > >-->john > >--> > >-->On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > >--> > >-->>-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving > >-->California... > >-->>--> > >-->>--> ... Huh? ... > >-->>--> > >-->>-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. > >-->The > >-->>-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. > >-->Corn is > >-->>-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. > >-->>-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I > >-->know? > >-->>-->Not only > >-->>-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of > >-->environmental hoops. > >-->>--> > >-->>-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some > >-->moved out to > >-->>-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. > >-->>--> > >-->>--> - Jerry Kaidor > >-->>--> > >--> > >--> ----- > >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > >--> http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--> > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:16:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Ethanol all things considered, and after driving across a lot of the US over the last 30 or 40 years, we're doing ok. things seem to balance themselves out... we have a pretty good system of government... john On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Alec Cordova wrote: >-->That's exactly what I was thinking about. >-->Now if they change the program such that farmers start using that land for >-->fuel crops, and reduce the amount we pay them to leave land idle, keeping in >-->mind that many farmers will need a financial kickstart to be able to start >-->using that other land.... Tricky stuff to manage well. >--> >-->> -----Original Message----- >-->> From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john >-->> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:23 PM >-->> To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com >-->> Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol >-->> >-->> >-->> you do realize that farmers are paid not to plant in >-->> some places... the farmers would be better one to >-->> talk with about this... there is a lot of land that's >-->> not being used ... >-->> >-->> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up >-->> >-->about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just >-->> >-->to escape the dire reality we create. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of >-->> >-->something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY >-->> >-->animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY >-->> >-->disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we >-->> >-->don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR >-->> >-->more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to >-->> >-->disrupt the food supply and the American economy. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing >-->> >-->things? >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Jason >-->> >--> >-->> >-->-- john wrote: >-->> >-->there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, >-->> >-->land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... >-->> >--> >-->> >-->I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) >-->> >--> >-->> >-->john >-->> >--> >-->> >-->On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >-->> >--> >-->> >-->>-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving >-->> >-->California... >-->> >-->>--> >-->> >-->>--> ... Huh? ... >-->> >-->>--> >-->> >-->>-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. >-->> >-->The >-->> >-->>-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. >-->> >-->Corn is >-->> >-->>-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. >-->> >-->>-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I >-->> >-->know? >-->> >-->>-->Not only >-->> >-->>-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of >-->> >-->environmental hoops. >-->> >-->>--> >-->> >-->>-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some >-->> >-->moved out to >-->> >-->>-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. >-->> >-->>--> >-->> >-->>--> - Jerry Kaidor >-->> >-->>--> >-->> >--> >-->> >--> ----- >-->> >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> >--> http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> >-->---------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ----- >-->> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2440 **********************************