From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sat Apr 14 07:03:09 2007 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Saturday, April 14 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2441 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol Re: [db] Ethanol [db] on the road again... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 06:13:21 -0400 From: "Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI" Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol On Thursday 12 April 2007 20:29, my mailbox was graced by a missive from "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" who wrote: > Why can't we make fuel out of something we don't eat, like switchgrass? Because maize is cheaper to use. > Or even sugar cane like Brazil? I That would upset our campaign supporters who benefit from tariffs on cane and derivatives. Cheers, Ron. - -- The fact that boys are allowed to exist at all is evidence of a remarkable Christian forbearance among men. -- Ambrose Bierce -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:21:59 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol Our system of government stinks! But it is much better than any of the others. Greg john wrote: all things considered, and after driving across a lot of the US over the last 30 or 40 years, we're doing ok. things seem to balance themselves out... we have a pretty good system of government... john On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Alec Cordova wrote: -->That's exactly what I was thinking about. -->Now if they change the program such that farmers start using that land for -->fuel crops, and reduce the amount we pay them to leave land idle, keeping in -->mind that many farmers will need a financial kickstart to be able to start -->using that other land.... Tricky stuff to manage well. --> -->> -----Original Message----- -->> From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net -->> [ mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net ]On Behalf Of john -->> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:23 PM -->> To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com -->> Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net -->> Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol -->> -->> -->> you do realize that farmers are paid not to plant in -->> some places... the farmers would be better one to -->> talk with about this... there is a lot of land that's -->> not being used ... -->> -->> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: -->> -->> >-->I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up -->> >-->about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just -->> >-->to escape the dire reality we create. -->> >--> -->> >-->Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of -->> >-->something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY -->> >-->animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY -->> >-->disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we -->> >-->don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR -->> >-->more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to -->> >-->disrupt the food supply and the American economy. -->> >--> -->> >-->But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing -->> >-->things? -->> >--> -->> >-->Jason -->> >--> -->> >-->-- john wrote: -->> >-->there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, -->> >-->land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... -->> >--> -->> >-->I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) -->> >--> -->> >-->john -->> >--> -->> >-->On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: -->> >--> -->> >-->>-->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving -->> >-->California... -->> >-->>--> -->> >-->>--> ... Huh? ... -->> >-->>--> -->> >-->>-->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. -->> >-->The -->> >-->>-->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. -->> >-->Corn is -->> >-->>-->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. -->> >-->>-->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I -->> >-->know? -->> >-->>-->Not only -->> >-->>-->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of -->> >-->environmental hoops. -->> >-->>--> -->> >-->>-->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some -->> >-->moved out to -->> >-->>-->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. -->> >-->>--> -->> >-->>--> - Jerry Kaidor -->> >-->>--> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 7:58 PM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:33:10 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol We export huge amounts of grain. Each week 3 or 4 shiploads of grain leave the ports of Portland/Vancouver for Asia and the Middle East. The Port of New Orleans exports even more grain than Portland. We have a tremendous capacity to grow much more than we need for food. I have read that ethanol is not the best fermentation product for fuel. Butanol is supposed to be as easy to produce through fermentation and a superior motor fuel. I strongly believe that our best hope is the military JP-8 project. I have read that there is a low temperature process for esterification that can produce mil-spec JP-8. This low temperature process will consequently use less energy than current biodiesel reactors. The JP-8 is more suitable as diesel fuel because it flows freely at below zero temperatures. I think ethanol is a blind alley being pushed by the lobbying groups. Greg jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: I dunno....but I do think that unless Americans start smartening up about this whole green thing, we're all going to be sampling it just to escape the dire reality we create. Come on, think about it. We're attempting to turn vast portions of something that is used as a basic foodstuff for humans and ESPECIALLY animals into fuel. I have to think that is going to be HIGHLY disruptive to the economy. Why can't we make fuel out of something we don't eat, like switchgrass? Or even sugar cane like Brazil? It is FAR more productive in both cases than corn, and much less likely to disrupt the food supply and the American economy. But when did the politicians ever encourage the smart way of doing things? Jason -- john wrote: there is talk here in south dakota how house prices, land prices and job salaries are going to go up because of ethanol... I think the folks may have been sampling the stuff... ;) john On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Jerry Kaidor wrote: -->There's an Ethanol craze, and therefore dairies are leaving California... --> --> ... Huh? ... --> -->I was just in Fresno for a few days, this was on the local news. The -->current demand for Ethanol has driven the price of corn way up. Corn is -->the stuff that cows are fed. And the price of milk is regulated. -->Although it seems pretty expensive to me these days, but what do I know? -->Not only -->that, but dairy farmers in CA are put through a lot of environmental hoops. --> -->So far, 26 dairies have left. Some have just dissolved, some moved out to -->the Midwest where the corn is closer and the regulations easier. --> --> - Jerry Kaidor --> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 7:58 PM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:10:26 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol >Our system of government stinks! But it is much better than any of the >others. > >Greg I look at it the same way as I do operating systems... they ALL suck. ;) Or as a funny pundit once said: "Communism is where man exploits man, whereas Capitalism is just the opposite." I do agree that transforming our food production systems on a large scale into fuel productions ones is self-defeating. That is why I only use WVO as my source of fuel. It has already been used once (or more!) in the food cycle, and is now destined either for the landfill or my cars. The latter seems to be a more reasonable choice. At least until we find a more viable alternative to the internal combustion engine. That is where I think our resources, both intellectual and financial, should be going right now. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Ethanol On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, chuck goolsbee wrote: > -->"Communism is where man exploits man, whereas Capitalism is just the > -->opposite." I like it... the common problem is man... > -->I do agree that transforming our food production systems on a large scale > -->into fuel productions ones is self-defeating. That is why I only use WVO as > -->my source of fuel. It has already been used once (or more!) in the food > -->cycle, and is now destined either for the landfill or my cars. The latter > -->seems to be a more reasonable choice. notice that the big problem is with the stinking gas engines. :) heading to Mitchell, SD from Sioux Falls in the morning, my dear mother in law passed today... funeral is on Tuesday and we should be home by Saturday. Lots for the family to deal with the next few days... I'll probably be on line from time to time, not much for me and my brother in law to do, we're the only non-family folks... he's from venezuela... I'm teaching him German, he's teaching me Spanish. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] on the road again... ...heading back West today to Mitchell, SD... the funeral for my dearly departed mother in law will be there on Tuesday. She's with the Lord now and at rest. We're all doing fine. the snow stopped on Thursday, it's in the 40's now, some still on the ground... hey, did you hear about the soldier in Iraq that is using the new "Apple iPod body armor"? It will stop an AK-47 bullet. http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003417.html john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2441 **********************************