From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jul 7 10:57:44 2007 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Saturday, July 7 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2491 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] failure on the fourth... Re: [db] failure on the fourth... Re: [db] failure on the fourth... Re: [db] failure on the fourth... [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. Re: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. RE: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:57:22 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] failure on the fourth... My understanding is that all Benz engines, both gas and diesel, are interference engines, and have been so for many decades. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Edward Pomeroy > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:08 PM > To: john; db > Subject: Re: [db] failure on the fourth... > > > Umm... let us know what you find out about the "non interference" bit. > I had the chain changed on the 300D 2.5 Turbo when I bought it and ran > some repairs, just for peace of mind, but it did not occur to me at the > time to ask the mechanic about the internal clearances between the valve > and top of piston :-( . > > Edward > > john wrote: > > >oh, she's happy, allows her to save up for a nicer car, not > >much out there in that price range... she's had this one for 5 yrs, > >she's not terribly fussy... > > > >overall she's "normal" and doesn't want a Diesel... > > > >same with my wife... but when it comes to going somewhere the > >pilot (that's me) is usually directed to the Diesel powered craft... > > > >funny how that works... ;) > > > > > > > > ----- > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > > > > # I guess she's probably not very happy about that, since it sounds like > > # she wanted a different car anyway. But hey, a timing chain is much > > # cheaper than a different car. And I doubt that's an interference > > # engine. Really doubt it. Actually, they're tanks compared to most G*S > > # engines. (I hate that dirty word.....) > > # > > # Jason > > # > > # -- john wrote: > > # found out what caused my daughter's car to die on > > # the 4th... timing chain broke... jim blair just > > # came over and we pulled the valve cover and confirmed it... > > # > > # and here I thought it had a timing gear set and not a chain... > > # > > # good news... unless of course the '91 2.5 tech 4 is an interference > > # motor... still might be ok... wasn't going very fast and > > # there were no catastrophic sounds... :) > > # > > # john > > # > > # ----- > > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 22:30:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] failure on the fourth... VW Diesels are definetly interference motors... so are hondas... someone mentioned that the mercedes are too... the 2.5 Tech 4 pontiac is not, as verified by the dealership this morning... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Edward Pomeroy wrote: # Umm... let us know what you find out about the "non interference" bit. I had # the chain changed on the 300D 2.5 Turbo when I bought it and ran some # repairs, just for peace of mind, but it did not occur to me at the time to # ask the mechanic about the internal clearances between the valve and top of # piston :-( . # # Edward # # john wrote: # # >oh, she's happy, allows her to save up for a nicer car, not # >much out there in that price range... she's had this one for 5 yrs, # >she's not terribly fussy... # >overall she's "normal" and doesn't want a Diesel... # > # >same with my wife... but when it comes to going somewhere the # >pilot (that's me) is usually directed to the Diesel powered craft... # > # >funny how that works... ;) # > # > # > # > ----- # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # >On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # > # > # I guess she's probably not very happy about that, since it sounds like # > # she wanted a different car anyway. But hey, a timing chain is much # > # cheaper than a different car. And I doubt that's an interference # > # engine. Really doubt it. Actually, they're tanks compared to most G*S # > # engines. (I hate that dirty word.....) # > # # > # Jason # > # # > # -- john wrote: # > # found out what caused my daughter's car to die on # > # the 4th... timing chain broke... jim blair just # > # came over and we pulled the valve cover and confirmed it... # > # # > # and here I thought it had a timing gear set and not a chain... # > # # > # good news... unless of course the '91 2.5 tech 4 is an interference # > # motor... still might be ok... wasn't going very fast and # > # there were no catastrophic sounds... :) # > # # > # john # > # # > # ----- # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # # > # > # > # > # > # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 07:24:06 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] failure on the fourth... Gosh, it keeps getting more messy. Now I have to worry about the 3.1L Pontiac engine in my van which has 120K miles. How many miles were on your 2.5 Pontiac engine when the chain broke? Edward john wrote: >VW Diesels are definetly interference motors... so are >hondas... someone mentioned that the mercedes are too... > >the 2.5 Tech 4 pontiac is not, as verified by the dealership this morning... > >john > > ----- >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Edward Pomeroy wrote: > > # Umm... let us know what you find out about the "non interference" bit. I had > # the chain changed on the 300D 2.5 Turbo when I bought it and ran some > # repairs, just for peace of mind, but it did not occur to me at the time to > # ask the mechanic about the internal clearances between the valve and top of > # piston :-( . > # > # Edward > # > # john wrote: > # > # >oh, she's happy, allows her to save up for a nicer car, not > # >much out there in that price range... she's had this one for 5 yrs, > # >she's not terribly fussy... > # >overall she's "normal" and doesn't want a Diesel... > # > > # >same with my wife... but when it comes to going somewhere the > # >pilot (that's me) is usually directed to the Diesel powered craft... > # > > # >funny how that works... ;) > # > > # > > # > > # > ----- > # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > > # >On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > # > > # > # I guess she's probably not very happy about that, since it sounds like > # > # she wanted a different car anyway. But hey, a timing chain is much > # > # cheaper than a different car. And I doubt that's an interference > # > # engine. Really doubt it. Actually, they're tanks compared to most G*S > # > # engines. (I hate that dirty word.....) > # > # > # > # Jason > # > # > # > # -- john wrote: > # > # found out what caused my daughter's car to die on > # > # the 4th... timing chain broke... jim blair just > # > # came over and we pulled the valve cover and confirmed it... > # > # > # > # and here I thought it had a timing gear set and not a chain... > # > # > # > # good news... unless of course the '91 2.5 tech 4 is an interference > # > # motor... still might be ok... wasn't going very fast and > # > # there were no catastrophic sounds... :) > # > # > # > # john > # > # > # > # ----- > # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # > # > > # > > # > > # > > # > > # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 06:17:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] failure on the fourth... > VW Diesels are definetly interference motors... so are > hondas... someone mentioned that the mercedes are too... *** I once bought a Honda Goldwing motorcycle that had been in storage for a year or so. On the trip home, one of the timing belts broke ( it's a flat opposed four, with a belt for each bank of cylinders ). I had to replace all the valves on the side that broke. - Jerry Kaidor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:25:04 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. Well, I'm exhausted. I've been wrestling with the exhaust in my '99 E320 station wagon for two straight days. At the end of that, most of the old stuff is out of the car, and I'm pausing to catch my breath before reassembling. I don't care if it's a Benz. They did a lousy job of engineering this car. The exhaust system weighs about 70lbs, and since it's six feet long, it's a real struggle for one person. The aftermarket replacement (bought from Rusty) is made in two pieces, which should make reassembly better. The mufflers are flanged to the cats using cheap cast iron flanges. For some reason, some genius ordered these bolted with grade 8 hardware. Stainless would have been nice. Grade 3 would have been satisfactory. What happened was that the cast iron rusted tightly around the bolts. So heavily rusted, that no amount of penetrant would free them. so the bolts had to be cut and drilled. Any idea how many drills it takes to bore the length of an 8mm grade 8? All of them. I don't have a single remaining bit that isn't dull or broken. An interesting error discovered: the flanges are different on the right and left side. There's absolutely no reason why they would be. It must add a bit to the cost of the car: they need four mandrels to make the pipes, and two high pressure molds for the graphite gaskets. Furthermore, the pipe on the right site has been expanded, as if they had given thought to a sleeve connection rather than a flange. This peculiar design must add about $10-15 to the cost of the car. Not a lot, but in the world of mass production, $15 multiplied by the thousands of cars which share this flaw amounts to a few dollars on the price of DCX stock. As for rust, it's everywhere. I can't believe that there's considerably more rust on my "new" car than on my 190D. If I hadn't replaced the exhaust, it would have fallen out of the car. Now I need to figure out what to do about the corroded heat shields, the rusty rear axle components, and the general rust on the body pan. When all of this is done, I will have to and bring the car in to Mercedes and have the left cat replaced. This is still under the Federal warranty, thank goodness. It's rusted at the manifold, and some clever person will need to figure out how to drill out the rusted manifold stud flange without lifting the motor. I think this is my last new Benz. Definitely not a satisfied customer. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:43:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. wow. is the exhaust rust a gas engine issue or just any car back east? john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 7 Jul 2007, Michael Frank wrote: # Well, I'm exhausted. I've been wrestling with the exhaust in my '99 E320 # station wagon for two straight days. At the end of that, most of the old # stuff is out of the car, and I'm pausing to catch my breath before # reassembling. # # I don't care if it's a Benz. They did a lousy job of engineering this car. # The exhaust system weighs about 70lbs, and since it's six feet long, it's a # real struggle for one person. The aftermarket replacement (bought from Rusty) # is made in two pieces, which should make reassembly better. # # The mufflers are flanged to the cats using cheap cast iron flanges. For some # reason, some genius ordered these bolted with grade 8 hardware. Stainless # would have been nice. Grade 3 would have been satisfactory. What happened was # that the cast iron rusted tightly around the bolts. So heavily rusted, that # no amount of penetrant would free them. so the bolts had to be cut and # drilled. Any idea how many drills it takes to bore the length of an 8mm grade # 8? All of them. I don't have a single remaining bit that isn't dull or # broken. # # An interesting error discovered: the flanges are different on the right and # left side. There's absolutely no reason why they would be. It must add a bit # to the cost of the car: they need four mandrels to make the pipes, and two # high pressure molds for the graphite gaskets. Furthermore, the pipe on the # right site has been expanded, as if they had given thought to a sleeve # connection rather than a flange. This peculiar design must add about $10-15 # to the cost of the car. Not a lot, but in the world of mass production, $15 # multiplied by the thousands of cars which share this flaw amounts to a few # dollars on the price of DCX stock. # # As for rust, it's everywhere. I can't believe that there's considerably more # rust on my "new" car than on my 190D. If I hadn't replaced the exhaust, it # would have fallen out of the car. Now I need to figure out what to do about # the corroded heat shields, the rusty rear axle components, and the general # rust on the body pan. # # When all of this is done, I will have to and bring the car in to Mercedes and # have the left cat replaced. This is still under the Federal warranty, thank # goodness. It's rusted at the manifold, and some clever person will need to # figure out how to drill out the rusted manifold stud flange without lifting # the motor. # # I think this is my last new Benz. Definitely not a satisfied customer. # # Mike Frank # # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:55:59 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. My 89 central Texas gasser is still on the original exhaust. I think I do now have a hole in the pipe before the last muffler or resonator, and I don't know how much of a bear it will be to remove any of the parts, but I figure 18 years and 223,000 miles ain't bad. Must be a W210-era and/or eastern car thing. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 12:44 PM > To: Michael Frank > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] OMG! W210 exhaust system. > > > wow. > > is the exhaust rust a gas engine issue or just any car back east? > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, 7 Jul 2007, Michael Frank wrote: > > # Well, I'm exhausted. I've been wrestling with the exhaust in > my '99 E320 > # station wagon for two straight days. At the end of that, most > of the old > # stuff is out of the car, and I'm pausing to catch my breath before > # reassembling. > # > # I don't care if it's a Benz. They did a lousy job of > engineering this car. > # The exhaust system weighs about 70lbs, and since it's six feet > long, it's a > # real struggle for one person. The aftermarket replacement > (bought from Rusty) > # is made in two pieces, which should make reassembly better. > # > # The mufflers are flanged to the cats using cheap cast iron > flanges. For some > # reason, some genius ordered these bolted with grade 8 > hardware. Stainless > # would have been nice. Grade 3 would have been satisfactory. > What happened was > # that the cast iron rusted tightly around the bolts. So heavily > rusted, that > # no amount of penetrant would free them. so the bolts had to be cut and > # drilled. Any idea how many drills it takes to bore the length > of an 8mm grade > # 8? All of them. I don't have a single remaining bit that isn't dull or > # broken. > # > # An interesting error discovered: the flanges are different on > the right and > # left side. There's absolutely no reason why they would be. It > must add a bit > # to the cost of the car: they need four mandrels to make the > pipes, and two > # high pressure molds for the graphite gaskets. Furthermore, the > pipe on the > # right site has been expanded, as if they had given thought to a sleeve > # connection rather than a flange. This peculiar design must add > about $10-15 > # to the cost of the car. Not a lot, but in the world of mass > production, $15 > # multiplied by the thousands of cars which share this flaw > amounts to a few > # dollars on the price of DCX stock. > # > # As for rust, it's everywhere. I can't believe that there's > considerably more > # rust on my "new" car than on my 190D. If I hadn't replaced the > exhaust, it > # would have fallen out of the car. Now I need to figure out > what to do about > # the corroded heat shields, the rusty rear axle components, and > the general > # rust on the body pan. > # > # When all of this is done, I will have to and bring the car in > to Mercedes and > # have the left cat replaced. This is still under the Federal > warranty, thank > # goodness. It's rusted at the manifold, and some clever person > will need to > # figure out how to drill out the rusted manifold stud flange > without lifting > # the motor. > # > # I think this is my last new Benz. Definitely not a satisfied customer. > # > # Mike Frank > # > # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2491 **********************************