From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Oct 25 19:30:39 2007 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, October 26 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2569 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement [db] Impressions of the 2008 smart fortwo now that I got to drive one [db] Can you shed light on this? Re: [db] Can you shed light on this? [db] Rumbling noise Re: [db] Can you shed light on this? Re: [db] Rumbling noise Re: [db] Rumbling noise Re: [db] Rumbling noise Re: [db] Rumbling noise Re: [db] Impressions of the 2008 smart fortwo now that I got to drive one Re: [db] Rumbling noise [db] Light and heat Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:54:36 -0700 From: "mscham" Subject: RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement >what did the instructions say? :) Yup, I would have read them and even followed them if the parts had come with them ;) >ask the parts manager at phil smart in lynnwood... hmm, hadn't considered that. they're almost 2 miles from here. hey might even use the phone =:o >or get in touch with Hogland's Top Shop in Everett, they'll know >what to do and might be able to fix it for you properly... cool alternative, should phil's parts not solve the issue. thanks Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:57:18 -0700 From: "mscham" Subject: RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement >>>have you tried and black silicon or adhesive? >>Careful with silicon adhesives or sealants. They # can damage >>the paint and expose the body to rust. >really... didn't know that... thanx... listen to bruce, >he knows rust... he's from NY/NJ... :) exactly why I asked. I didn't want to use something that would negatively impact the paint on the sun roof. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] 300SD sun roof gasket replacement that's why this list is so helpful... we've consolidated the wisdom and experience of a vast multitude... it's virtually idiot-proof if you wait long enough for the sages to respond. :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 24 Oct 2007, mscham wrote: # >>>have you tried and black silicon or adhesive? # >>Careful with silicon adhesives or sealants. They # can damage # >>the paint and expose the body to rust. # >really... didn't know that... thanx... listen to bruce, # >he knows rust... he's from NY/NJ... :) # exactly why I asked. I didn't want to use something that would negatively # impact the paint on the sun roof. # # Mike # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:00:39 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: [db] Impressions of the 2008 smart fortwo now that I got to drive one Well, the smart road show came through Austin this week, and being a 99 dollar "reservation holder", I got to attend the early show yesterday. They had three passion coupes and one convertible. All had the automated manual transmission, and only the convertible had power steering. The initial engine for the US is a 1.0 liter, 3 cylinder, 71hp gasser that I've heard is a Mitsubishi unit. The Brabus turbo gasser may come here in a year or two if smart has any success in the US, and still no word on a nice turbodiesel. I think they are still struggling to meet California/Massachusetts/etc. emissions for the diesel. The car is around 1700 pounds. Just under that for the hardtop and just over for the convertible. The demo models we had were Euro models, including kph speedos and km odometers, but otherwise fairly close to what will start being delivered in the US in early January for around $15K. Plenty of interior space for two people. I'm 5' 10" and fairly stout, and I'm frequently at a lack for headroom in most cars, and there were no space issues for me. Acceleration was actually not unacceptable. It's no speed demon, but it moves what little weight it has reasonably well. Probably better than an 85 300SD, and likely still in the race with an 86 or 87 300SDL, which are my likely choices for next car if I don't go for the smart. Braking was fine. The front wheels are stuffed full of brake rotor. The rears have the scrawniest looking drums I think I've ever seen, but they probably don't need to do anything more than serve as parking brakes. Remember that this thing is 3 feet shorter than a Mini Cooper, so even with rear engine and rear wheel drive, nearly all of the braking can only be done with the fronts, no matter what kind of brakes are in back. Steering wasn't great. Not much action for a given amount of turning the steering wheel, and low speed maneuvers get surprisingly heavy without the electric power steering. Consider two hands a requirement for parallel parking, unless you use the marketing trick of facing the curb in a parallel parking spot, and relying on the fact that this car is no longer than most other cars are wide. The transmission is my biggest problem, although the reps were saying the tranny computer is being slightly reprogrammed for the US. It's an automated manual, meaning it's a regular manual with clutch, but gear changes are entirely handled by the computer (other than the shift paddles on the steering wheel). When starting from a stop, you can clearly feel the robot using the clutch to start you off. That's fine, but subsequent shifts are horrendously slow for my taste, and they seem to take the same amount of time whether you're just putting along or are at full throttle. I didn't time it, but it felt like shifts took well over a full second. It really destroyed my experience with the paddle shifters, and even when running in normal full-auto mode, it's very disconcerting. My current frame of reference is my 89 300CE, whose transmission probably shifts a little more quickly than when it was new. Some of my car's shifts border on harsh, but I never feel like it's wasting any time or energy. The smart reps mentioned that the US reprogramming will produce quicker shifts, but they gave no indication of how much quicker. They will also add a "creep" mode to make it behave more like a traditional auto when starting to move. The ones I drove dropped to neutral when you stopped, and stayed there when you took your foot off the brake. You had to give it some gas to engage first. Creep mode will start engaging first when you release the brakes. This aspect didn't bother me. It was the subsequent shifts that would keep me from dropping down money if they are not substantially improved. I'm starting to appreciate Audi's latest commercials where they say their twin clutch unit can shift in two tenths of a second. There are also still no official US EPA fuel economy estimates. EPA is currently testing them. smart currently simply claims, "the vehicle is designed to achieve 40 plus mpg under normal driving conditions and current standards", with no clear indication if that is highway or combined. The reps at the tour said they have been driving the cars between tour cities, using the trucks and trailers only for the cutaway frame and their show equipment, and we got "high 30's/low 40's" from one of the reps, with implications that it was mostly high 30's. I was hoping for more than that. The driving at the show was very limited: no highway speeds and no real uneven surfaces; just a couple of stretches of less than a quarter mile, several stops, and a little coned chicane, but they really discouraged attacking the chicane. When I left the facility, I was frustrated by the fact that my 89 300CE with 228K miles (that really wants a few thousand bucks or more fed to it for more suspension rubber, climate control blower, various plastic pieces, a dying driver's seat frame, and a paint job to cover the disappearing clear coat) drives, rides, steers, and feels worlds better. I'm gonna get myself stuck with a W126 300SD or SDL that's older than my current coupe and still needs suspension rubber and climate control work. I keep trying to avoid it, but I'm not having much success. Happy Benzing, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 228K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:49:00 -0400 From: Subject: [db] Can you shed light on this? Ummmm........help! This morning I get in my '77 300D, roar up the engine, and realize that my headlights are not working. After fussing with them on the way down my road, I discovered that I could get some light by pulling the hi/lo control arm and holding it. The parking lights work. I suspect the relay but can't find it. Help! J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:57:20 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: Re: [db] Can you shed light on this? Check/replace fuses first. Low beams, high beams, and parking lights are on different ones. Can you get high beams the standard way, by pushing the stalk? Maybe also start checking ground connections at/near the lights themselves. It's always possible that the stalk/combo switch is the culprit, but I would suspect fuses or grounds before the stalk. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 228K On 10/25/07, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > Ummmm........help! > > This morning I get in my '77 300D, roar up the engine, and realize that my headlights are not working. After fussing with them on the way down my road, I discovered that I could get some light by pulling the hi/lo control arm and holding it. The parking lights work. > > I suspect the relay but can't find it. Help! > > J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:06:43 -0300 From: "Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI" Subject: [db] Rumbling noise On a 300d W123 from 1978. Under acceleration, curve or dtraight line, at certain speeds I get a loud rumbling / vibration as if I was dragging something on a washboard. Eldest Daughter, seated at the back, claims she can feel it under her feet. Any idea ? Should I prepare to humanely kill the poor animal ? Cheers, Ron. - -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to ? -- Clarence Darrow -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:33:00 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [db] Can you shed light on this? No, no lights in high or low. I hadn't thought of the ground though. It's also possible that I pulled a wire off with my foot. The subdash is partly down and tied to wires (dumb PO) J - -----Original Message----- From: "Alec Cordova" Subj: Re: [db] Can you shed light on this? Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:57 pm Size: 811 bytes To: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Check/replace fuses first. Low beams, high beams, and parking lights are on different ones. Can you get high beams the standard way, by pushing the stalk? Maybe also start checking ground connections at/near the lights themselves. It's always possible that the stalk/combo switch is the culprit, but I would suspect fuses or grounds before the stalk. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 228K On 10/25/07, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: > Ummmm........help! > > This morning I get in my '77 300D, roar up the engine, and realize that my headlights are not working. After fussing with them on the way down my road, I discovered that I could get some light by pulling the hi/lo control arm and holding it. The parking lights work. > > I suspect the relay but can't find it. Help! > > J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:34:00 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [db] Rumbling noise Center bearing probably. Should be fixable. J - -----Original Message----- From: "Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI" Subj: [db] Rumbling noise Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:05 pm Size: 615 bytes To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net On a 300d W123 from 1978. Under acceleration, curve or dtraight line, at certain speeds I get a loud rumbling / vibration as if I was dragging something on a washboard. Eldest Daughter, seated at the back, claims she can feel it under her feet. Any idea ? Should I prepare to humanely kill the poor animal ? Cheers, Ron. - -- Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to ? -- Clarence Darrow -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Rumbling noise sounds like a ujoint, but the 123 uses a rubber disc instead of a ujoint, so check the bolts and material at the end of the driveshaft going into the rear axle. ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: # On a 300d W123 from 1978. # # Under acceleration, curve or dtraight line, at certain speeds I get a loud # rumbling / vibration as if I was dragging something on a washboard. # # Eldest Daughter, seated at the back, claims she can feel it under her feet. # # Any idea ? # # Should I prepare to humanely kill the poor animal ? # # Cheers, # # Ron. # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:43:07 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: Re: [db] Rumbling noise I agree with Jason. Center driveshaft bearing, or its support. Although it could be an inner or outer joint of one of the rear half shafts. If you repair this yourself, be sure to mark the front and rear portions of the driveshaft and maintain that alignment. Alec On 10/25/07, john wrote: > sounds like a ujoint, but the 123 uses a rubber disc > instead of a ujoint, so check the bolts and material > at the end of the driveshaft going into the rear axle. > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > > # On a 300d W123 from 1978. > # > # Under acceleration, curve or dtraight line, at certain speeds I get a loud > # rumbling / vibration as if I was dragging something on a washboard. > # > # Eldest Daughter, seated at the back, claims she can feel it under her feet. > # > # Any idea ? > # > # Should I prepare to humanely kill the poor animal ? > # > # Cheers, > # > # Ron. > # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:51:48 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Rumbling noise I had a similar problem which turned out to be a bad differential. After a lot of trial and error trying to pin it down, it finally diagnosed itself when a spherical bearing let go at speed. It hit so hard, the case cracked open. That made it easy to find :-0. Replacement used diff was a few hundred bucks, plus installation. Things to check include the center driveshaft joint, half shaft joints, and the rubber flex joints. Or maybe you'll get lucky and it's just a broken muffler mount. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:59:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Impressions of the 2008 smart fortwo now that I got to drive one thanx for the write up... bruce and I were at the ML series event, it was advertised as a way of wringing out the ML on a closed course... well, bruce's wife and I were both scolded for driving too fast. ;) sheesh, what's the fun of tearing up your own car? I'm disappointed in the new jeeps as well... why can't they make a vehicle we can afford with all the right stuff? ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Alec Cordova wrote: # Well, the smart road show came through Austin this week, and being a # 99 dollar "reservation holder", I got to attend the early show # yesterday. # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:07:00 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [db] Rumbling noise Hmmm, hadn't thought of the differential, that could do it too. I doubt that it's CV halfshafts; those tend to grind, click, or shudder, but not washboard rumble. Then again, I haven't heard it either. I really doubt the flex disc could do that....rubber tends to be quiet right to the brutal finish. My money (well, mouth at least) is on the center bearing first, or possibly the differential. J - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frank Subj: Re: [db] Rumbling noise Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:55 pm Size: 511 bytes To: diesel-benz list I had a similar problem which turned out to be a bad differential. After a lot of trial and error trying to pin it down, it finally diagnosed itself when a spherical bearing let go at speed. It hit so hard, the case cracked open. That made it easy to find :-0. Replacement used diff was a few hundred bucks, plus installation. Things to check include the center driveshaft joint, half shaft joints, and the rubber flex joints. Or maybe you'll get lucky and it's just a broken muffler mount. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:19:00 -0400 From: Subject: [db] Light and heat Which of course are related. I found the issue with the headlights: it was a burned-off terminal on the column stick box. I think some super glue will hold it together for awhile; the wire was still soldered on, but the plastic around it was badly deteriorated so it wasn't where it belonged. I'll just hope to limp it for a few days until I can get south to steal Bennie's. (Yep, he's still helping me keep my 123s going.) Now if only the climate control would cooperate.....there is one ray of sunshine in that bleak, defrosterless (hence hazy) picture. When I was fiddling with wires and such when I got home to try to light the lights, I noticed that the climate control amplifier was warm. I had the defrost button mashed to hope for some ram-air effect (which I have yet to get) so that pleased me to note. That makes me wonder if maybe there isn't some simple fix on the climate push-button box, or even a dead fan, though I doubt that. I think it is likely the push box, since it doesn't even attempt to move flaps and such when I push buttons. Are they available from Rusty? I might just pull it and see if it was an easy fix myself, but it looks difficult to get out. One way or the other, I'd like it to work soon, because leaving a window open to keep the windshield from fogging up STINKS, and it won't do much of anything once the temp drops below freezing. J ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2569 **********************************