From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 16 10:54:53 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, January 16 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2642 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! [db] info on french car inspections... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:40:57 -0800 From: "Travis S. Thornton" Subject: RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! Agreed! - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:29 AM To: Travis S. Thornton Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! I'm not sure any of us understand how all the taxes work here or in Europe. But I think it's therapuetic for us to talk about it... where else can we go to talk about issues like this without getting red faced? We're all friends here, and know that we all do not share the same viewpoints, but our common focus is our wheels. :) I will say one thing, the roads in Europe are fantastic... They're quite good in California and Oregon, can't say the same thing for Western Washington. ;) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Travis S. Thornton wrote: # Wow. I've benefitted from this list and gotten some good advice for my 74 # 240d, but the politics are very interesting. I agree the market can't # really drive folks' vehicle selection if it is prohibited from working # effectively as a result of governmental restrictions. But doesn't that cut # both ways? What should the true cost of gas and road use be? Why aren't # the $10/gal EU fuel prices appropriate here, at least for discretionary # driving? There are societal benefits in having all taxpayers subsidize # roads and fuel for commerce that benefits those taxpayers. However, why # should a non-driver pay a subsidy to a Hummer driver? Isn't that also a # nanny state, with the nanny-ism protecting those who take more than their # share? Just sayin'. # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On # Behalf Of john # Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:29 AM # To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com # Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # Subject: Re: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! # # people are insecure... # the world is a tough place and people just put their hope in the government # to take care of them... # it's a lot easier than actually dealing with it yourself, so you give up a # few things in exchange... no biggie, # right? # # # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # there's a solution for every problem; # problem is can we afford the solution? # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # # # [sigh] That's about what I figured. I just hope that "baby step" (which I # think is more like 200 baby steps) doesn't get allowed to take us to that # point. Better yet, get it repealed in the interest of freedom. # # # # When will the nanny state go away? When people break up with government # and fall in love with freedom again. But it will NEVER happen. People are # more interested in feeling safe than being free. Enviro-whacko-ism is just # one example. # # # # J # # # # -----Original Message----- # # # # From: Edward Pomeroy # # Subj: Re: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! # # Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:19 pm # # Size: 3K # # To: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" # # cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # # # # You don't really want to know the answer to that. To list some of the # # insanity going on in Europe - by 2012 no car can emit more than 140 # # grams of CO2 per some number of miles, I don't have the rules and # # formulas memorized but can dig it up at work if necessary. All parts # # of the car must be recyclable and you the buyer are paying for that cost # # up front when you buy a new car. To the extreme that the materials used # # in the car must be designed to be easily removed and recycled (if # # unchecked, this may kill the old car hobby in europe, there is one hell # # of a fight going on now over just that). As you may be aware, the nanny # # state now requires all trucks over 2 tons to have a trip recorder in it # # that logs speed and mileage and you are taxed on road usage or fined for # # breaking the law based on the readings, so if you are a trucker, you are # # locked in to so many hours of driving per day and at no more than the # # mandated speeds (they use team drivers to get around the driving time # # limits on long haul). Then you have to take a break, stop at a hotel or # # whatever. It is already increasing the cost of shipping intra EU like # # crazy. And if you are a private party that happens to want a nice large # # truck, you too are snared in this idiocy plus you need to get a CDL to # # drive your private truck (and the cost of doing so runs into the # # thousands of dollars). Also, in Norway for example, they passed a law # # that says that a truck by definition cannot carry more than 3 persons in # # the front seats so if you want a twin cab US truck (or a HUMMER) over # # there, you have to strip out the rear seats and use it only for cargo or # # you can't get it registered. And on and on it goes. Welcome to the # # brave new EU world. # # # # Our new CAFE standard is a baby step down this road, I am a proponent of # # letting the marketplace determine what is built. If people demand # # smaller vehicles, the industry will go that way, if they don't, it # # won't. (but by golly the elites will force you to like it!). # # # # Edward # # # # jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # # # # >What environmentally paranoid legislation are they referencing in 2012? # Some # # >dastardly anti-capitalist UN mandate? # # > # # >J # # > # # >-- Edward Pomeroy wrote: # # >I stripped out the picture - go to the website to look. # # >Edward # # > # # > # # >An advanced hybrid diesel engine, capable of returning 60mpg will power # # >the planned production version of Land Rover's stunning LRX, it has been # # >announced. # # > # # > # # >Tipped to go on sale in 2009, the three door cross-coupe was the star of # # >this year's 2008 Detroit Motor Show, and dramatically takes Land Rover # # >into an uncharted sector of the new car market. # # > # # >"The LRX concept delivers the powerful message that we are as serious # # >about sustainability as we are confident about the relevance and # # >desirability of our vehicles" said Phil Popham, Land Rovers managing # # >director. "LRX is in every respect a Land Rover, but it is a very # # >different Land Rover," he added. # # > # # >Though exact details of the engine are still top secret, the firm has # # >announced that the 2.0-litre diesel electric hybrid unit will be capable # # >of running on bio fuel, and is the first to feature the firm's newly # # >developed Electric Rear Axle Drive (ERAD). # # > # # >This will allow the car to drive in a fully electric mode at low speeds, # # >while retaining unbeatable off road ability and impressive on road # # >performance. # # > # # >With a CO2 output of 120g/km, the car meets tough new emissions # # >legislation, due to be introduced in 2012. # # > # # >More LAND ROVER LRX: # # > # # > o News, Auto Express News: Land Rover LRX # # > # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:31:00 -0500 From: Subject: RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! Ummmm.......well, I am quite politically minded (I think.....) but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. I'll give it my best shot. How is a non-driver subsidizing a hummer driver? Virtually all of the road taxes consumers pay in this country are on fuel. Non-drivers buy none of it, hummer drivers buy a lot of it, so how is that subsidizing anything? And commerce uses more fuel than you can imagine, thus paying its fair share, AND they get double-dipped on by getting charged AGAIN by miles as well as gallons, thus they pay MORE than their "fair share." Also, the true price of anything is determined by a simple mechanism of supply and demand. When the government gets involved in trade with taxes and price-fixing, economic woes always follow, such as shortages. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a "fair share." But for the sake of argument, let's define it as if there is. If you have the means to legitimately procure something and wish to do so, there's nothing unfair about that. But taking something from another by theft (force,) whether you use your own gun or Unkle Sam's, is ALWAYS taking more than your fair share, no matter how little you have. People who have the least in this country typically are the ones who take more than their fair share, in that they are the ones who tend to take things that do not belong to them by means of government redistribution programs. If it weren't for the socialist wealth redistribution programs, there would be no "unemployment" stats, because it'd be too small to note. These government-sanctioned theft operations both hamstring the economy by sucking money out of it, reducing the number of jobs to be had, and also reduce the motivation of certain individuals to work. It used to be, and still ought to be, that someone who refused to work somewhere, somehow would starve. Private charities should help the disabled, and the lazy should be allowed to get hungry so they have a motive to go out and work again. Now the government will feed people who don't want to work, so they don't. J - -----Original Message----- From: "Travis S. Thornton" Subj: RE: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:18 am Size: 6K To: Wow. I've benefitted from this list and gotten some good advice for my 74 240d, but the politics are very interesting. I agree the market can't really drive folks' vehicle selection if it is prohibited from working effectively as a result of governmental restrictions. But doesn't that cut both ways? What should the true cost of gas and road use be? Why aren't the $10/gal EU fuel prices appropriate here, at least for discretionary driving? There are societal benefits in having all taxpayers subsidize roads and fuel for commerce that benefits those taxpayers. However, why should a non-driver pay a subsidy to a Hummer driver? Isn't that also a nanny state, with the nanny-ism protecting those who take more than their share? Just sayin'. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 12:29 AM To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! people are insecure... the world is a tough place and people just put their hope in the government to take care of them... it's a lot easier than actually dealing with it yourself, so you give up a few things in exchange... no biggie, right? ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # [sigh] That's about what I figured. I just hope that "baby step" (which I think is more like 200 baby steps) doesn't get allowed to take us to that point. Better yet, get it repealed in the interest of freedom. # # When will the nanny state go away? When people break up with government and fall in love with freedom again. But it will NEVER happen. People are more interested in feeling safe than being free. Enviro-whacko-ism is just one example. # # J # # -----Original Message----- # # From: Edward Pomeroy # Subj: Re: [db] New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! # Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:19 pm # Size: 3K # To: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" # cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # # You don't really want to know the answer to that. To list some of the # insanity going on in Europe - by 2012 no car can emit more than 140 # grams of CO2 per some number of miles, I don't have the rules and # formulas memorized but can dig it up at work if necessary. All parts # of the car must be recyclable and you the buyer are paying for that cost # up front when you buy a new car. To the extreme that the materials used # in the car must be designed to be easily removed and recycled (if # unchecked, this may kill the old car hobby in europe, there is one hell # of a fight going on now over just that). As you may be aware, the nanny # state now requires all trucks over 2 tons to have a trip recorder in it # that logs speed and mileage and you are taxed on road usage or fined for # breaking the law based on the readings, so if you are a trucker, you are # locked in to so many hours of driving per day and at no more than the # mandated speeds (they use team drivers to get around the driving time # limits on long haul). Then you have to take a break, stop at a hotel or # whatever. It is already increasing the cost of shipping intra EU like # crazy. And if you are a private party that happens to want a nice large # truck, you too are snared in this idiocy plus you need to get a CDL to # drive your private truck (and the cost of doing so runs into the # thousands of dollars). Also, in Norway for example, they passed a law # that says that a truck by definition cannot carry more than 3 persons in # the front seats so if you want a twin cab US truck (or a HUMMER) over # there, you have to strip out the rear seats and use it only for cargo or # you can't get it registered. And on and on it goes. Welcome to the # brave new EU world. # # Our new CAFE standard is a baby step down this road, I am a proponent of # letting the marketplace determine what is built. If people demand # smaller vehicles, the industry will go that way, if they don't, it # won't. (but by golly the elites will force you to like it!). # # Edward # # jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # # >What environmentally paranoid legislation are they referencing in 2012? Some # >dastardly anti-capitalist UN mandate? # > # >J # > # >-- Edward Pomeroy wrote: # >I stripped out the picture - go to the website to look. # >Edward # > # > # >An advanced hybrid diesel engine, capable of returning 60mpg will power # >the planned production version of Land Rover's stunning LRX, it has been # >announced. # > # > # >Tipped to go on sale in 2009, the three door cross-coupe was the star of # >this year's 2008 Detroit Motor Show, and dramatically takes Land Rover # >into an uncharted sector of the new car market. # > # >"The LRX concept delivers the powerful message that we are as serious # >about sustainability as we are confident about the relevance and # >desirability of our vehicles" said Phil Popham, Land Rovers managing # >director. "LRX is in every respect a Land Rover, but it is a very # >different Land Rover," he added. # > # >Though exact details of the engine are still top secret, the firm has # >announced that the 2.0-litre diesel electric hybrid unit will be capable # >of running on bio fuel, and is the first to feature the firm's newly # >developed Electric Rear Axle Drive (ERAD). # > # >This will allow the car to drive in a fully electric mode at low speeds, # >while retaining unbeatable off road ability and impressive on road # >performance. # > # >With a CO2 output of 120g/km, the car meets tough new emissions # >legislation, due to be introduced in 2012. # > # >More LAND ROVER LRX: # > # > o News, Auto Express News: Land Rover LRX # > # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:54:39 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] info on french car inspections... this just in from a friend in the bay area from france... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, michel balea wrote: # Hummmm, you can register a 20 year old wagoneer..... the only caveat are the # technical inspections.... which are pretty stricts: rust will be a no no..... # # the visits starts on year 4th , then every other year.... a very good # incentive not to keep your car too long... a good boost for the local # economy..... It seems like the world is really running on a strong # automotive economic machine.... GM cough, Ford choke Chrysler sneeze # and the world is coming to a slow down..... # # brakes, shocks integrity (all four side tested independly) steering, # headlights alignement, windshield opacity, oil leaks... yes, labelled as # integrity of engine, smog test and the final is the integrity of # accessories... like the good quality of the seat.... # # http://www.controletechnique.info/points-de-controle-technique/pollution-niveau-sonore-10.html # # As usual too much legislation to profit a few.... just like the remote # controlled thermostats proposed in Kali.... Woodstove/fireplace are already # banned in new constructions in San Fran. # # # Rover at 60 mpg.... then what happened to the 90mpg diesel honda accord.... it # was released 1 year ago in the UK... # # Michel # # > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:23:26 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: ejpomeroy-at-qtm.net # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net; jasonbassett-at-juno.com; # diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: New Rover with 60MPG hybrid diesel!! You go John! # > # > didn't france pass a law a few years ago that you couldn't # > register cars over 5 years old or something like that??? I recall # > reading something along those lines, but do not remember the details # > and probably have them wrong... # > # > anyone remember this? it may be in our digests... I surely commented # > on it to the lists... # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > there's a solution for every problem; # > problem is can we afford the solution? # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Edward Pomeroy wrote: # > # > You don't really want to know the answer to that. To list some of the # > insanity going on in Europe - by 2012 no car can emit more than 140 grams # of # > CO2 per some number of miles, I don't have the rules and formulas # memorized # > but can dig it up at work if necessary. All parts of the car must be # > recyclable and you the buyer are paying for that cost up front when you # buy a # > new car. To the extreme that the materials used in the car must be # designed # > to be easily removed and recycled (if unchecked, this may kill the old # car # > hobby in europe, there is one hell of a fight going on now over just # that). # > As you may be aware, the nanny state now requires all trucks over 2 tons # to # > have a trip recorder in it that logs speed and mileage and you are taxed # on # > road usage or fined for breaking the law based on the readings, so if you # are # > a trucker, you are locked in to so many hours of driving per day and at # no # > more than the mandated speeds (they use team drivers to get around the # > driving time limits on long haul). Then you have to take a break, stop at # a # > hotel or whatever. It is already increasing the cost of shipping intra EU # > like crazy. And if you are a private party that happens to want a nice # large # > truck, you too are snared in this idiocy plus you need to get a CDL to # drive # > your private truck (and the cost of doing so runs into the thousands of # > dollars). Also, in Norway for example, they passed a law that says that # a # > truck by definition cannot carry more than 3 persons in the front seats so # if # > you want a twin cab US truck (or a HUMMER) over there, you have to strip # out # > the rear seats and use it only for cargo or you can't get it registered. # And # > on and on it goes. Welcome to the brave new EU world. # > Our new CAFE standard is a baby step down this road, I am a proponent of # > letting the marketplace determine what is built. If people demand smaller # > vehicles, the industry will go that way, if they don't, it won't. (but by # > golly the elites will force you to like it!). # > # > Edward # > # > jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # > # > >What environmentally paranoid legislation are they referencing in 2012? # Some # > >dastardly anti-capitalist UN mandate? # > > # > >J # > > # > >-- Edward Pomeroy wrote: # > >I stripped out the picture - go to the website to look. # > >Edward # > > # > > # > >An advanced hybrid diesel engine, capable of returning 60mpg will power # > >the planned production version of Land Rover's stunning LRX, it has been # > >announced. # > > # > > # > >Tipped to go on sale in 2009, the three door cross-coupe was the star of # > >this year's 2008 Detroit Motor Show, and dramatically takes Land Rover # > >into an uncharted sector of the new car market. # > > # > >"The LRX concept delivers the powerful message that we are as serious # > >about sustainability as we are confident about the relevance and # > >desirability of our vehicles" said Phil Popham, Land Rovers managing # > >director. "LRX is in every respect a Land Rover, but it is a very # > >different Land Rover," he added. # > > # > >Though exact details of the engine are still top secret, the firm has # > >announced that the 2.0-litre diesel electric hybrid unit will be capable # > >of running on bio fuel, and is the first to feature the firm's newly # > >developed Electric Rear Axle Drive (ERAD). # > > # > >This will allow the car to drive in a fully electric mode at low speeds, # > >while retaining unbeatable off road ability and impressive on road # > >performance. # > > # > >With a CO2 output of 120g/km, the car meets tough new emissions # > >legislation, due to be introduced in 2012. # > > # > >More LAND ROVER LRX: # > > # > > o News, Auto Express News: Land Rover LRX # > > # # _________________________________________________________________ # Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. # http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2642 **********************************