From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Mar 31 09:36:22 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, March 31 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2706 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Not strictly Mercedes Re: [db] Not strictly Mercedes [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s Re: [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s Re: [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... Re: [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... Re: [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:04:34 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Not strictly Mercedes I have had three of these 5.7L V8s. Olds Cutlasses primarily, similiar in size, etc. with the stock air cleaner setup, 19 mpg in town high 20's on the road. with an amsoil and an amsoil air filter and two air intakes to the air cleaner, 20-22 in town and 33 mpg on the freeway in Idaho, more typical 29 to 30 mpg. HOWEVER, it's not mileage he should be concerned about. If this is the original 5.7L V8 and not the newer roller lifter, redesigned head gaskets, redesigned oil gaskets and beefed up... or a TARGETMASTER engine, not sure if they came out in '82 or '83. But if it's that engine he can expect good life and power... if it's NOT a targetmaster (roller lifter cam, etc.) he can expect oil leaks, a flat cam, head gasket problems and so on... life is about 80,000 miles. The 5.7L V8 is a good engine when it's a TARGETMASTER version... I can't remember when they fixed the issues if it was 82 or 83... I replaced the engine in my '80 in '84 with one... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: # Local friend asks me for help, as he has in sight a 1982 Chevrolet Caprice # Diesel V8 auto, but would like to hear from a reliable source (=not the # seller) what kind of mpg to expect. # # Anyone here would have an idea ? # # Cheers, # # Ron. # -- # Der Gedanke an den Selbstmord is ein starkes Trostmittel: # Mit ihm kommt man gut C Subject: Re: [db] Not strictly Mercedes Unless GM used a different diesel outside the US, that's not a particularly fine example of an engine. The 350 cubic inch V* diesel they sold in the states is the engine many of us blame for the poor reputation of all diesel engines with the general US public. I don't know what mileage to expect, I just wanted to mention that this is not a US engine that US car folks are proud of. ;-) Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 234K, still for sale 08 smart fortwo, 800 miles On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > Local friend asks me for help, as he has in sight a 1982 Chevrolet Caprice > Diesel V8 auto, but would like to hear from a reliable source (=not the > seller) what kind of mpg to expect. > > Anyone here would have an idea ? > > Cheers, > > Ron. > -- > Der Gedanke an den Selbstmord is ein starkes Trostmittel: > Mit ihm kommt man gut C -- Friedrich Nietsche > > -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:59:14 +0100 From: "Stephen Rigley" Subject: [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... So... the 2.5TD XJ saga continues (I'm really making a meal out of this project.. ).. I've removed the heads (after having to take an impact wrench to the injectors!), so any ideas on how to remove the lifters? Is it just a matter of putting a circlip pliers in there and pulling them out? Or is there another method? I need some encouragement here heheh Steve P.S. looks a bit sooty : http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00959.JPG http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00972.JPG P.P.S. Where do I sign up for the XJ list? I thought I was on it.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s Here's what I could find on Wikipedia... No specific dates, will have to contact a friend who ran a chevy dealer to see if he remembers the specific dates... john from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines Diesel In the face of the 1970s 'gas crisis', GM turned to Diesel power for economic benefit, directing the Oldsmobile division to develop a V6 and two V8 engines, to be shared with all divisions. These Diesel engines were designed to fit into the engine bays of gasoline powered automobiles, but despite popular belief, they were not "converted" gasoline engines. Oldsmobile's diesel engines, the 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s and 4.3 L LT6/LT7/LS2 V6, were notoriously unreliable, particularly in the earliest versions, though reliability had improved by the early 1980s with the advent of the DX block, along with better fuel filtering and water separators. By the early 80's,the 5.7L diesel was a fairly reliable engine with the introduction of the rollerized camshaft/roller lifter combination and had many improved enhancements that the late 70's 5.7L diesel engines did not have. Many of the reliability issues these engines developed were a combination of faults not just related to design. Many of these engines suffered major malfunctions from poor quality fuel, mechanics not properly trained in diesel repair, and even improper owner service and maintenance. Although over one million were sold between 1978 and 1985, the failure rate of GM's engines ruined the reputation of Diesel engines not just built by GM, but overall in the United States market. Eventually, a class action lawsuit resulted in an arbitration system under the supervision of the Federal Trade Commission where consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of the engine in the event of a failure. The Oldsmobile 5.7 liter engines experienced a wide gamut of malfunctions. One of the common failures was with crankshaft bearings. This was frequently attributed to owners and maintainers running the engines on SG rated oil (intended for gasoline engines), versus CD oil (intended for Diesel engines). This prompted GM to introduce the DX block which then allowed extended oil change intervals to 5,000 miles (8,000 km). D block engines required frequent oil change intervals because of the friction created between the typical flat tappet camshaft and hydraulic lifters. When the oil change interval was ignored,excessive wear was placed upon the camshaft and lifters. In 1981 when the DX block was introduced, the rollerized camshaft and roller lifters did away with any possibility of worn camshaft lobes because of reduced friction. These engines also suffered from blown head gaskets, warped heads, bad injector pumps, and bad injectors. The beginnings of these problems can be attributed to poor quality diesel fuel that may have contained water or other contaminants. These materials would damage the inside of the injector pump, and then eventually clog injectors. If water was injected into the engine, it could cause a "hydrolock" which would blow head gaskets and bend valves because water is virtually incompressible. This was the reason GM equipped later cars with water detectors and double filtration systems on their vehicles. When a hapless owner took the vehicle in for repair, the mechanic would resurface the head, making it thinner, install a new head gasket, and then reuse the old, stretched-out fasteners. It would not be but a few thousand miles, and the vehicle was in the shop again for head gasket failure or a warped head. Nowadays high performance head bolt kits are available to do away with the problems the 5.7L diesel engines had such as the blown head gasket fiasco. Performance bolt fasteners when used within the 5.7L diesel will then make it a bulletproof, reliable design. The frustrated owner would frequently just get the shop to convert the engine to gasoline after a few repeated failures like this. As a side note, these diesel engine blocks were frequently sought by hot-rodders to build high-performance gasoline engines because of their extra heavy duty components which would withstand extreme horsepower. In the 1980s and 1990s GM produced the 6.2 L and 6.5 liter V8 Diesels for use in light trucks and in the HMMWV. ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # Unless GM used a different diesel outside the US, that's not a # particularly fine example of an engine. The 350 cubic inch V* diesel # they sold in the states is the engine many of us blame for the poor # reputation of all diesel engines with the general US public. # # I don't know what mileage to expect, I just wanted to mention that # this is not a US engine that US car folks are proud of. ;-) # # Alec Cordova # Taylor, Texas # 89 300CE, 234K, still for sale # 08 smart fortwo, 800 miles # # On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI # wrote: # > Local friend asks me for help, as he has in sight a 1982 Chevrolet Caprice # > Diesel V8 auto, but would like to hear from a reliable source (=not the # > seller) what kind of mpg to expect. # > # > Anyone here would have an idea ? # > # > Cheers, # > # > Ron. # > -- # > Der Gedanke an den Selbstmord is ein starkes Trostmittel: # > Mit ihm kommt man gut C -- Friedrich Nietsche # > # > -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s reading what I posted, it appears that the '82 would have the required improvements. I had planned on using one of these engines in my '81 Grand Wagoneer... if this engine has been cared for it'll probably be fine and give reasonable economy. thinking back a friend of mine at intel had an '82 Caprice wagon and got 18 to 19 mpg in town and mid 20's on the freeway... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, john wrote: # Here's what I could find on Wikipedia... No specific dates, will have to # contact # a friend who ran a chevy dealer to see if he remembers the specific dates... # # john # # # from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines # # Diesel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:00:20 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... does each cyliner have it's own head??? john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Stephen Rigley wrote: # So... the 2.5TD XJ saga continues (I'm really making a meal out of this # project.. ).. I've removed the heads (after having to take an impact wrench # to the injectors!), so any ideas on how to remove the lifters? Is it just a # matter of putting a circlip pliers in there and pulling them out? Or is # there another method? I need some encouragement here heheh # # Steve # # P.S. looks a bit sooty : # http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00959.JPG # http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00972.JPG # # P.P.S. Where do I sign up for the XJ list? I thought I was on it.. # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:18:22 +0100 From: "Stephen Rigley" Subject: Re: [db] non-MB Diesel Hydraulic lifter question... yeah, a model of the Range Rover had a v.similar engine (VM diesel, 2.5), except it had 4 head gaskets + solid lifters. Steve On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:00 PM, john wrote: > does each cyliner have it's own head??? > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Stephen Rigley wrote: > > # So... the 2.5TD XJ saga continues (I'm really making a meal out of this > # project.. ).. I've removed the heads (after having to take an impact > wrench > # to the injectors!), so any ideas on how to remove the lifters? Is it > just a > # matter of putting a circlip pliers in there and pulling them out? Or is > # there another method? I need some encouragement here heheh > # > # Steve > # > # P.S. looks a bit sooty : > # http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00959.JPG > # http://srigley.powweb.com/members/Steve/pics/jeep/DSC00972.JPG > # > # P.P.S. Where do I sign up for the XJ list? I thought I was on it.. > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:29:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Hoffman Subject: Re: [db] GM Diesels in the early 80s "but despite popular belief, they were not "converted" gasoline engines." Hmmmmm.... Seems I recall that you could see a "plate" covering the whole where the distributor would have been if it had been a gas engine... Anyone else recall anything similar? Maybe I had inadvertently gotten some kind of hallucinogenic... ;) Jim - --- john wrote: > Here's what I could find on Wikipedia... No specific > dates, will have to > contact > a friend who ran a chevy dealer to see if he > remembers the specific dates... > > john > > > from wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines > > Diesel > > In the face of the 1970s 'gas crisis', GM turned to > Diesel power for economic > benefit, directing the Oldsmobile division to > develop a V6 and two V8 engines, > to be shared with all divisions. > > These Diesel engines were designed to fit into the > engine bays of gasoline > powered automobiles, but despite popular belief, > they were not "converted" > gasoline engines. Oldsmobile's diesel engines, the > 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s > and 4.3 L LT6/LT7/LS2 V6, were notoriously > unreliable, particularly in the > earliest versions, though reliability had improved > by the early 1980s with the > advent of the DX block, along with better fuel > filtering and water separators. > By the early 80's,the 5.7L diesel was a fairly > reliable engine with the > introduction of the rollerized camshaft/roller > lifter combination and had many > improved enhancements that the late 70's 5.7L diesel > engines did not have. > Many of the reliability issues these engines > developed were a combination of > faults not just related to design. Many of these > engines suffered major > malfunctions from poor quality fuel, mechanics not > properly trained in diesel > repair, and even improper owner service and > maintenance. Although over one > million were sold between 1978 and 1985, the failure > rate of GM's engines > ruined the reputation of Diesel engines not just > built by GM, but overall in > the United States market. Eventually, a class action > lawsuit resulted in an > arbitration system under the supervision of the > Federal Trade Commission where > consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of > the engine in the event of a > failure. > > The Oldsmobile 5.7 liter engines experienced a wide > gamut of malfunctions. One > of the common failures was with crankshaft bearings. > This was frequently > attributed to owners and maintainers running the > engines on SG rated oil > (intended for gasoline engines), versus CD oil > (intended for Diesel engines). > This prompted GM to introduce the DX block which > then allowed extended oil > change intervals to 5,000 miles (8,000 km). D block > engines required frequent > oil change intervals because of the friction created > between the typical flat > tappet camshaft and hydraulic lifters. When the oil > change interval was > ignored,excessive wear was placed upon the camshaft > and lifters. In 1981 when > the DX block was introduced, the rollerized camshaft > and roller lifters did > away with any possibility of worn camshaft lobes > because of reduced friction. > These engines also suffered from blown head gaskets, > warped heads, bad > injector pumps, and bad injectors. The beginnings of > these problems can be > attributed to poor quality diesel fuel that may have > contained water or other > contaminants. These materials would damage the > inside of the injector pump, > and then eventually clog injectors. If water was > injected into the engine, it > could cause a "hydrolock" which would blow head > gaskets and bend valves > because water is virtually incompressible. This was > the reason GM equipped > later cars with water detectors and double > filtration systems on their > vehicles. > > When a hapless owner took the vehicle in for repair, > the mechanic would > resurface the head, making it thinner, install a new > head gasket, and then > reuse the old, stretched-out fasteners. It would not > be but a few thousand > miles, and the vehicle was in the shop again for > head gasket failure or a > warped head. Nowadays high performance head bolt > kits are available to do away > with the problems the 5.7L diesel engines had such > as the blown head gasket > fiasco. Performance bolt fasteners when used within > the 5.7L diesel will then > make it a bulletproof, reliable design. The > frustrated owner would frequently > just get the shop to convert the engine to gasoline > after a few repeated > failures like this. As a side note, these diesel > engine blocks were frequently > sought by hot-rodders to build high-performance > gasoline engines because of > their extra heavy duty components which would > withstand extreme horsepower. > > In the 1980s and 1990s GM produced the 6.2 L and 6.5 > liter V8 Diesels for use > in light trucks and in the HMMWV. > > ----- > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't > rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** > http://wagoneers.com ** > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: > > # Unless GM used a different diesel outside the US, > that's not a > # particularly fine example of an engine. The 350 > cubic inch V* diesel > # they sold in the states is the engine many of us > blame for the poor > # reputation of all diesel engines with the general > US public. > # > # I don't know what mileage to expect, I just > wanted to mention that > # this is not a US engine that US car folks are > proud of. ;-) > # > # Alec Cordova > # Taylor, Texas > # 89 300CE, 234K, still for sale > # 08 smart fortwo, 800 miles > # > # On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Renaud (Ron) > OLGIATI > # wrote: > # > Local friend asks me for help, as he has in > sight a 1982 Chevrolet > Caprice > # > Diesel V8 auto, but would like to hear from a > reliable source (=not the > # > seller) what kind of mpg to expect. > # > > # > Anyone here would have an idea ? > # > > # > Cheers, > # > > # > Ron. > # > -- > # > Der Gedanke an den Selbstmord is ein > starkes Trostmittel: > # > Mit ihm kommt man gut C bC6se Nacht hinweg. > # > > -- Friedrich Nietsche > # > > # > -- > http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- > # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2706 **********************************