From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jul 2 14:02:11 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, July 2 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2804 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] heating fuel Re: [db] heating fuel Re: [db] heating fuel Re: [db] heating fuel RE: [db] heating fuel Re: [db] heating fuel [db] new law in WA - look ma, no hands... RE: [db] heating fuel Re: [db] heating fuel Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:44:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] heating fuel well, I'm looking at using straight (filtered) WVO, especially when on the road and away from my biodiesel buddies... my Grand Wagoneer consumes a fair whack of fuel in town so using swvo as a supplement will save the costs of converting to biodiesel. It's only getting around 16 or so in town, but I've got plenty of sources of wvo so heating wvo and using it along with biodiesel makes sense to me. So, would heating Diesel and BioDiesel to 160 degrees be an issue? Lubricity? If not, then I could just heat all the fuel running into the pump. anyone know? I could move my fuel selector solenoid up to the firewall, or just have the aux tank run a line to the heater then back to the solenoid... I should have done all this myself... when the engine was out I could have plumbed all of this stuff in, soundproofed the firewall, etc. outsourcing just flat out doesn't work... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # I thought real biodiesel didn't need much heating, but I would think it # would have no objections to 160 degrees. Impurities have been filtered and # processed out, so even repeated cycles between ambient temps and 160 # shouldn't cause anything unwanted to form. # # Alec # # > -----Original Message----- # > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john # > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:07 AM # > To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com # > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel # > # > # > wasn't offended... but a few hours of my time is worth # > more than a couple hundred bucks... ;) Besides, I'd # > never trust my own soldering... would always have a nagging doubt. ;) # > # > actually, the VW TDI fuel heater setup is very, very attractive, # > just need to figure out how to plumb in a valve setup for # > the auxillary tank... will be using biodiesel most of the time, # > not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. # > # > john # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:52:28 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel >not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. That would depend entirely upon if your BD has any residual methanol left in it. MeoH starts burning/exploding at about 1450 F IIRC. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:13:08 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel >>not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. > >That would depend entirely upon if your BD has any residual methanol >left in it. MeoH starts burning/exploding at about 1450 F IIRC. My "degree" symbol got changed to a zero for some reason. That should read "one hundred and forty five degrees Fahrenheit." I imagine it is safe in a contained system at that temperature, since, after all, methanol recovery systems operate at about 250 (degrees) F. But you might see some pre-ignition or similar pyrotechnics once you get to the fuel/air stage of the process. I'm not a mechanical engineer with great understanding of the Diesel cycle engine, so PLEASE don't take my word for it. Mind you: Residual methanol should be fairly minimal to non-existent in properly washed and dried BioDiesel, but unless it is produced and tested to ASTM specs, which I know for a fact that your fuel *isn't*... I'd suggest not heating your BioDiesel above 140 degrees F. Better safe than sorry. On a completely unrelated note I saw online that Mercedes announced the specs of their BlueTec Diesels for the US market today. They don't really look all that impressive to me. Of course they are all in SUV chassis too. While I know John has a fatal attraction to such chassis I think MB would be better off, and their customers more interested in Diesel powered CARS. The market doesn't need more trucks right now. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel I doubt there would be enough concentration in the mix to cause a problem... and as you pointed out, being in the enclosed space of the fuel line would prevent, or limit combustion... I looked at an inline fuel pump to assist my lift pump. I read a few posts on various sites that mentioned lift pump issues with the 6.2/6.5. Since my plumbing is anything but stock that could very well explain my issues with idling/starting and stopping... Have an old fuel pump I may put in my system. I used it to prime the system, it is a passthrough type if it fails. :) May set it up so it's only used at lower speeds... as far as the mercedes suvs... ho hum. the gl450 is massive, makes my Grand Wagoneer look like a minicar. I looked at bruce's '00 ml320 when he was selling it... it was a nice vehicle, and quite possibly if it had been a Diesel it might have joined my fleet. ;) I know where there is another '91 300D 2.5L TD that's for sale... wouldn't be bad having two of them... ;) his and hers... but then what would we do with the his and her jeeps? :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, chuck goolsbee wrote: # > >not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. # > # >That would depend entirely upon if your BD has any residual methanol left in # >it. MeoH starts burning/exploding at about 1450 F IIRC. # # My "degree" symbol got changed to a zero for some reason. That should read # "one hundred and forty five degrees Fahrenheit." # # I imagine it is safe in a contained system at that temperature, since, after # all, methanol recovery systems operate at about 250 (degrees) F. But you # might see some pre-ignition or similar pyrotechnics once you get to the # fuel/air stage of the process. I'm not a mechanical engineer with great # understanding of the Diesel cycle engine, so PLEASE don't take my word for # it. # # Mind you: Residual methanol should be fairly minimal to non-existent in # properly washed and dried BioDiesel, but unless it is produced and tested to # ASTM specs, which I know for a fact that your fuel *isn't*... I'd suggest not # heating your BioDiesel above 140 degrees F. Better safe than sorry. # # # # On a completely unrelated note I saw online that Mercedes announced the specs # of their BlueTec Diesels for the US market today. They don't really look all # that impressive to me. Of course they are all in SUV chassis too. While I # know John has a fatal attraction to such chassis I think MB would be better # off, and their customers more interested in Diesel powered CARS. The market # doesn't need more trucks right now. # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:44:16 GMT From: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" Subject: RE: [db] heating fuel I'd suggest you don't. It would lose some lubricity, and if you ever had to put the enviro-whacko dino-diesel in, hooo BOY! Water in the pump, anyone? I FINALLY figured out (remembered) why this is even an issue: your valve is down on the frame. Not to make more work for you, but you're going to need to move it. It should be right behind the lift pump with only a few feet of tubing behind it. Then you put the heater right behind the valve, on the WVO/SVO side ONLY. By putting the valve way downstream (like OEMs do, so I understand why someone not thinking WVO would do it that way) it creates conundrums of where to put the WVO heaters and filters. Furthermore, if you did put the heater underneath, behind the valve, there's a lot of tubing to go through before getting to the engine, and that's a lot of heat loss. Time to do some plumbing, I'm afraid........ J - -- john wrote: well, I'm looking at using straight (filtered) WVO, especially when on the road and away from my biodiesel buddies... my Grand Wagoneer consumes a fair whack of fuel in town so using swvo as a supplement will save the costs of converting to biodiesel. It's only getting around 16 or so in town, but I've got plenty of sources of wvo so heating wvo and using it along with biodiesel makes sense to me. So, would heating Diesel and BioDiesel to 160 degrees be an issue? Lubricity? If not, then I could just heat all the fuel running into the pump. anyone know? I could move my fuel selector solenoid up to the firewall, or just have the aux tank run a line to the heater then back to the solenoid... I should have done all this myself... when the engine was out I could have plumbed all of this stuff in, soundproofed the firewall, etc. outsourcing just flat out doesn't work... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # I thought real biodiesel didn't need much heating, but I would think it # would have no objections to 160 degrees. Impurities have been filtered and # processed out, so even repeated cycles between ambient temps and 160 # shouldn't cause anything unwanted to form. # # Alec # # > -----Original Message----- # > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john # > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:07 AM # > To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com # > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel # > # > # > wasn't offended... but a few hours of my time is worth # > more than a couple hundred bucks... ;) Besides, I'd # > never trust my own soldering... would always have a nagging doubt. ;) # > # > actually, the VW TDI fuel heater setup is very, very attractive, # > just need to figure out how to plumb in a valve setup for # > the auxillary tank... will be using biodiesel most of the time, # > not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. # > # > john # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:45:18 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel >I know where there is another '91 300D 2.5L TD that's for sale... wouldn't >be bad having two of them... ;) his and hers... but then what would we >do with the his and her jeeps? See Jason! Your analysis of John's symptoms were generally correct, however your diagnosis of his condition was a bit off. John's not senile, he is INSANE. ;) - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi & 06 Liberty CRD arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:51:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] new law in WA - look ma, no hands... today is the day that talking on a cell phone without a headset or handsfree setup is illegal in Washington state... found out there is an outfit that gives away headsets for phones: http://FreeHeadset.org I couldn't imagine driving why holding a cell phone... I can't image walking or even sitting while holding a cell phone... the folks that say there is no difference between talking on a cell phone with a headset versus holding it obviously don't drive much, or drink lattes... Need to keep my hands free for radio adjustments and the latte... only have two hands, don't want to waste one holding a phone. ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] heating fuel the ULSD is actually pretty nice stuff... my Diesels don't smoke any more, my economy has been fine... don't know what you're whining about. ;) of course when they first came out with it they didn't formulate it correctly and damaged pumps... and before they came out with it they were dumping the really heavy sulfured stuff... man oh man did my Diesels smoke... :) the solenoid is on the frame below the primary filter... the lift pump is after the primary filter and before the secondary... if I put a pump on the output of the solenoid it'll be "pushing" fuel into the primary which will be drawn out with the stock lift pump and into the secondary. If I put a heater on the input to the solenoid from the aux, I could mount the heater/filter up on the firewall and just run the line back down to the solenoid in insulated line, or add a section of jason line as a supplement... need to think about this a bit... if I move the solenoid up to the firewall, along with a pump and a heater setup it might work, but I will still have the two racors down on the frame... another option is to make a heated line and run the fuel for the aux tank up to the firewall and back in a custom heated line and into the first filter, that way the first filter will be heated and have some reserve... just thinking... need to sort this all out over time... :) options also include pulling the stock lift pump and filters and put everything under the hood... jason, telling you right now none of this is definite, don't even think of holding me to any of this. ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, jasonbassett-at-juno.com wrote: # I'd suggest you don't. It would lose some lubricity, and if you ever had to # put the enviro-whacko dino-diesel in, hooo BOY! Water in the pump, anyone? # # I FINALLY figured out (remembered) why this is even an issue: your valve is # down on the frame. Not to make more work for you, but you're going to need to # move it. It should be right behind the lift pump with only a few feet of # tubing behind it. Then you put the heater right behind the valve, on the # WVO/SVO side ONLY. By putting the valve way downstream (like OEMs do, so I # understand why someone not thinking WVO would do it that way) it creates # conundrums of where to put the WVO heaters and filters. Furthermore, if you # did put the heater underneath, behind the valve, there's a lot of tubing to go # through before getting to the engine, and that's a lot of heat loss. # # Time to do some plumbing, I'm afraid........ # # J # # -- john wrote: # well, I'm looking at using straight (filtered) WVO, especially when # on the road and away from my biodiesel buddies... my Grand Wagoneer # consumes a fair whack of fuel in town so using swvo as a supplement # will save the costs of converting to biodiesel. It's only getting # around 16 or so in town, but I've got plenty of sources of wvo # so heating wvo and using it along with biodiesel makes sense to me. # # So, would heating Diesel and BioDiesel to 160 degrees be an issue? # Lubricity? # # If not, then I could just heat all the fuel running into the pump. # # anyone know? # # I could move my fuel selector solenoid up to the firewall, or just # have the aux tank run a line to the heater then back to the solenoid... # # I should have done all this myself... when the engine was out I could # have plumbed all of this stuff in, soundproofed the firewall, etc. # # outsourcing just flat out doesn't work... ;) # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # # # I thought real biodiesel didn't need much heating, but I would think it # # would have no objections to 160 degrees. Impurities have been filtered and # # processed out, so even repeated cycles between ambient temps and 160 # # shouldn't cause anything unwanted to form. # # # # Alec # # # # > -----Original Message----- # # > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net # # > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john # # > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:07 AM # # > To: jasonbassett-at-juno.com # # > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # # > Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel # # > # # > # # > wasn't offended... but a few hours of my time is worth # # > more than a couple hundred bucks... ;) Besides, I'd # # > never trust my own soldering... would always have a nagging doubt. ;) # # > # # > actually, the VW TDI fuel heater setup is very, very attractive, # # > just need to figure out how to plumb in a valve setup for # # > the auxillary tank... will be using biodiesel most of the time, # # > not sure if heating biodiesel to 160 degrees would be a problem. # # > # # > john # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] heating fuel I could probably pass the certification if necessary... oh, wait, you said insane, not sys admin... ;) I simply refuse to be constrained by allegedly normal patterns of life. Just try to define "normal"... go ahead, I dare you. :) back to setting up the quintiple(sp?) boot system in my lab... need to reload SuSE 10.3 because SuSE 11 won't work with XEN or VirtualBox... need to install Windows 2003 so I can boot to an image disk so I can install the network image of XP... just finished resizing the disk with Gparted. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, chuck goolsbee wrote: # >I know where there is another '91 300D 2.5L TD that's for sale... wouldn't # >be bad having two of them... ;) his and hers... but then what would we # >do with the his and her jeeps? # # See Jason! Your analysis of John's symptoms were generally correct, however # your diagnosis of his condition was a bit off. John's not senile, he is # INSANE. ;) # # # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2804 **********************************