From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 5 14:04:24 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, August 5 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2834 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) Re: [db] RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) [db] Fuel Prices Re: [db] fleet reduction Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) yep, there is a young man in San Antonio that converted a Jeep Cherokee (XJ) to electric, he spent about $10-12K doing it, has about 100 mile range... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Nathaniel Butts wrote: # >From my own research on the subject (toyed around as a possible senior mech eng project) this will cost between $10-12000 and you might get about 25 miles in range, if you're lucky. The two biggest factors on range for a full electric or hybrid is weight and aerodynamics...... # # -----Original Message----- # From: "john" # Sent: 8/4/08 1:12 PM # Subject: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) # # popcorn ready? ;) have another frankenstein Jeep idea... :) # # # sure, I'm selling two of my "functioning" Jeeps... still have # the '67 J100 (takes 25 gallons to fill up btw), and my '83 J10 # stepside that is in Centralia... no engine... and that's where # the idea starts... # # talking to an engineer friend at work we started talking about electrics # and hybrids... got me thinking... # # there is no way I can sell SuperDawg as is... :) no one is going to buy # a shell, classic shell that it is... # # The Blazer/Benz combo will take care of all our driving needs, leaving # me to have a project stuffed in the back of the carport... # # So, I'm thinking of a couple of options: # # 1) full electric - 2 motors on the pinions of each axle, this works # out as the front axle has a 3.31 gear set, rear axle 4.10. # use one for starting, one for cruising, # that way I wouldn't need as much range on the motors. For 4wd use # I'd just drive both motors... would take a bit of engineering, but nothing # outrageous... if using 4wd I'd be on slippery stuff anyway, so 100% synch not required. # # 2) a quicker more flexible solution: # I could use a mercedes Diesel driveline, rear wheel drive setup only with # an electric motor on the front pinion... I could quickly get the J10 # up and running in 2wd mode, 3.0L TD with automatic... 4.10 in the rear # should work fine in town... # # I could use the benz motor to drive a generator as # well, maybe off of a pulley, and the electric motor as a boost # and for 4wd... hmmm... # # I think this is a link to a 65K generator: # http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors.html # # or as the primary source of power in town... # would require fewer batteries less weight... # # a Diesel hybrid... a Mercedes/Full Size Jeep/Diesel hybrid... :) # # this solves the transfer case/regearing issue... the money I'd # save on the front axle gear swap could be used for the electric motor... # plus I could run on veggie oil and biodiesel. # # # I've priced out 3.0L I-5's with Automatics before... very affordable... # and having supplemental electric to get it going solves the issue of having # the smaller mercedes pushing the heavier jeep about. # # This wouldn't be a family rig, or a cross country all in one vehicle... and it # would take a long time to get it running... # # so instead of rebuilding the existing carport I'm thinking I'll add an arbor # setup in the drive to cover the Blazer and the Benz, reroof and enclose the # carport to hold SuperDawg and start a hybrid project... :) # # # First step, get the carport setup and enclosed... # then have SuperDawg reassembled and drag him home. # # then find a driveline and install... get him moving about under his own power, then # find an electric motor... and get it rolling... # SuperDawg is now emissions exempt... we waited long enough. ;) # # So, another project begins without the pressure of making it perfect or # quick... and I have my obligatory Full Size Jeep, and Mercedes Diesel... and # yes, I'll use an XJ console in the J10, along with WJ seats... # # Need to find some large beams for the driveway arbor now... :) # # I think the beams need to be about 25 to 30 feet long, at least 8x8 or larger... # anyone know where I can get some??? (yes, I have a chain saw, but I'd # prefer that I didn't attempt to get these out of the nearby mountains myself. ;) # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > To: John # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > # > Now you're cooking with elctric power! The key is power management, it is NOT trivial the moste efficient systems (Prius & Volt) use 3 Phase motors, 300-500 volts DC is inverted to 220-240 Volt 3 phase AC that passes though a very sophisticated "black box" which "massaages" and delivers the power to the single 3 phase motor driving the 2 front wheels. If you go to 4 independent "wheel motors" the "black box" must get VERY smart because it becomes the electronic transfer case and differentials. # > Here is one outfit in the UK that has doen this to a Mini Cooper: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/, QED = Quad Electric Drive # > # > Douglas # > I've thought about this a bit, for a 4x4 just use 4 electric motors... or two, attached # > to the pinion of each axle... that makes the most sense... no driveshafts.. # > # > hmmm... I have a 1983 J10 Stepside... I could set it up as an electric vehicle... # > if I did that I wouldn't have to regear the front axle, it's 3.31, rear is 4.10. I could # > use this to my advantage... one for getting it moving, the other for cruising... and if # > I needed 4wd I just run the motors at different RPMs. # > # > I could put a small generator on board with electric start... line the bed with batteries # > under a false floor, the engine bay with batteries... two large electric motors... # > # > this thing would be quick, low center of gravity, totally quiet, except when the generator # > was running to charge the batteries... :) # > # > you got me thinking... :) # > # > From: Douglas # > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:51 AM # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > So now that GM will be introcucing the Chevy Volt a pliug-in series Hybrid Electric car, (meaning that the engine ONLY drives a gnerator, and ONLY runs if the batteries need charging). If dirven 4o miles or les a day and plugged every nigh> t the engine Genset will NEVER run. # > GM needs to do a 4WD Blazer / Yukion / Tahoe variant with a larger engine driving two Volt sized generators or a larger generator, and some more batteries. Electric offroading, a whole new sub-culture will emerge. # > # > Douglas # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Ditwiler Subject: Re: [db] RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) Most of the electric conversions are being done with brushed DC motors and lead acid batteries. This is little changed from the electric cars of the pre-WWI era. Electronic developments in the late 1990's have allowed tremendous improvements in how electric motors are controlled. Most store-bought hybrids use brush-less DC motors, high end luxury electrics use AC induction motors and ditch the weight of the permanent magnets. One has to be a good friend of Maxwell to play with the AC motors and the regen has the added twist of needing energy to generate energy--no push starting. Google "Traction Control." I am opting for the middle technology (Brushless DC) and have found a company in China that is developing them in power ranges to be useful for even large vehicles. They have promised to have the 22KW version ready this summer. It will cost about $4K while its controller will cost $6K. Then another $10-20K on LiFePO4 batteries and we have a screaming monster for way less than the Lighting and the other one whose name escapes me at the moment. Maybe this attachment will get to John if not the list. - ----- Original Message ----- From: john To: Nathaniel Butts Cc: xj-list , full size jeep list , diesel-benz list Sent: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [db] RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) yep, there is a young man in San Antonio that converted a Jeep Cherokee (XJ) to electric, he spent about $10-12K doing it, has about 100 mile range... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Nathaniel Butts wrote: # >From my own research on the subject (toyed around as a possible senior mech eng project) this will cost between $10-12000 and you might get about 25 miles in range, if you're lucky. The two biggest factors on range for a full electric or hybrid is weight and aerodynamics...... # # -----Original Message----- # From: "john" # Sent: 8/4/08 1:12 PM # Subject: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) # # popcorn ready? ;) have another frankenstein Jeep idea... :) # # # sure, I'm selling two of my "functioning" Jeeps... still have # the '67 J100 (takes 25 gallons to fill up btw), and my '83 J10 # stepside that is in Centralia... no engine... and that's where # the idea starts... # # talking to an engineer friend at work we started talking about electrics # and hybrids... got me thinking... # # there is no way I can sell SuperDawg as is... :) no one is going to buy # a shell, classic shell that it is... # # The Blazer/Benz combo will take care of all our driving needs, leaving # me to have a project stuffed in the back of the carport... # # So, I'm thinking of a couple of options: # # 1) full electric - 2 motors on the pinions of each axle, this works # out as the front axle has a 3.31 gear set, rear axle 4.10. # use one for starting, one for cruising, # that way I wouldn't need as much range on the motors. For 4wd use # I'd just drive both motors... would take a bit of engineering, but nothing # outrageous... if using 4wd I'd be on slippery stuff anyway, so 100% synch not required. # # 2) a quicker more flexible solution: # I could use a mercedes Diesel driveline, rear wheel drive setup only with # an electric motor on the front pinion... I could quickly get the J10 # up and running in 2wd mode, 3.0L TD with automatic... 4.10 in the rear # should work fine in town... # # I could use the benz motor to drive a generator as # well, maybe off of a pulley, and the electric motor as a boost # and for 4wd... hmmm... # # I think this is a link to a 65K generator: # http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors.html # # or as the primary source of power in town... # would require fewer batteries less weight... # # a Diesel hybrid... a Mercedes/Full Size Jeep/Diesel hybrid... :) # # this solves the transfer case/regearing issue... the money I'd # save on the front axle gear swap could be used for the electric motor... # plus I could run on veggie oil and biodiesel. # # # I've priced out 3.0L I-5's with Automatics before... very affordable... # and having supplemental electric to get it going solves the issue of having # the smaller mercedes pushing the heavier jeep about. # # This wouldn't be a family rig, or a cross country all in one vehicle... and it # would take a long time to get it running... # # so instead of rebuilding the existing carport I'm thinking I'll add an arbor # setup in the drive to cover the Blazer and the Benz, reroof and enclose the # carport to hold SuperDawg and start a hybrid project... :) # # # First step, get the carport setup and enclosed... # then have SuperDawg reassembled and drag him home. # # then find a driveline and install... get him moving about under his own power, then # find an electric motor... and get it rolling... # SuperDawg is now emissions exempt... we waited long enough. ;) # # So, another project begins without the pressure of making it perfect or # quick... and I have my obligatory Full Size Jeep, and Mercedes Diesel... and # yes, I'll use an XJ console in the J10, along with WJ seats... # # Need to find some large beams for the driveway arbor now... :) # # I think the beams need to be about 25 to 30 feet long, at least 8x8 or larger... # anyone know where I can get some??? (yes, I have a chain saw, but I'd # prefer that I didn't attempt to get these out of the nearby mountains myself. ;) # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > To: John # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > # > Now you're cooking with elctric power! The key is power management, it is NOT trivial the moste efficient systems (Prius & Volt) use 3 Phase motors, 300-500 volts DC is inverted to 220-240 Volt 3 phase AC that passes though a very sophisticated "black box" which "massaages" and delivers the power to the single 3 phase motor driving the 2 front wheels. If you go to 4 independent "wheel motors" the "black box" must get VERY smart because it becomes the electronic transfer case and differentials. # > Here is one outfit in the UK that has doen this to a Mini Cooper: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/, QED = Quad Electric Drive # > # > Douglas # > I've thought about this a bit, for a 4x4 just use 4 electric motors... or two, attached # > to the pinion of each axle... that makes the most sense... no driveshafts.. # > # > hmmm... I have a 1983 J10 Stepside... I could set it up as an electric vehicle... # > if I did that I wouldn't have to regear the front axle, it's 3.31, rear is 4.10. I could # > use this to my advantage... one for getting it moving, the other for cruising... and if # > I needed 4wd I just run the motors at different RPMs. # > # > I could put a small generator on board with electric start... line the bed with batteries # > under a false floor, the engine bay with batteries... two large electric motors... # > # > this thing would be quick, low center of gravity, totally quiet, except when the generator # > was running to charge the batteries... :) # > # > you got me thinking... :) # > # > From: Douglas # > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:51 AM # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > So now that GM will be introcucing the Chevy Volt a pliug-in series Hybrid Electric car, (meaning that the engine ONLY drives a gnerator, and ONLY runs if the batteries need charging). If dirven 4o miles or les a day and plugged every nigh> t the engine Genset will NEVER run. # > GM needs to do a 4WD Blazer / Yukion / Tahoe variant with a larger engine driving two Volt sized generators or a larger generator, and some more batteries. Electric offroading, a whole new sub-culture will emerge. # > # > Douglas # # [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of BLT car motor(2).JPG] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Hoffman Subject: [db] Fuel Prices Just paid $4.299 yesterday for diesel! That's down about $.40 in the past two weeks. It's weird. I think regular has actually gone up a bit in that same time period. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:56:16 GMT From: "jasonbassett-at-juno.com" Subject: Re: [db] fleet reduction You've really lost it. I can't believe that you're selling Omega. And that hybrid idea is interesting, but it'll still be in pieces in 25 years, at the rate your previous projects have gone. It will be VERY difficult, particularly getting them coordinated. Toyota had a time with it; computers locking up on the road, total system quittage, yuck. And if you can't be happy with Omega, you'll never be happy with any mongrelized vehicle, and had better just stick with OTC stuff. Omega really was cool, and wind noise is........kinda irrelevant on a vehicle like that. It's a brick, you expect it. And vibration? It's diesel; that's why we love them. I dunno about you..........I do wish I had enough mOOlah to take the big O off your hands......I can love him, wind and all! J - -- john wrote: selling two of our Jeeps: 1999 Grand Cherokee with 4.7L V8 - 21 mpg freeway http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/car/782831274.html everything works perfectly... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/99WJ/ 1991 Grand Wagoneer with 6.2L Diesel - 23+ mpg freeway http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/car/774209972.html only thing not working is the cruise control... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/91SJ/ and, I'm looking for a Mercedes Turbo Diesel and Automatic transmission... planning a Diesel Hybrid for SuperDawg... :) yet another Frankenstein project from the Snohomish Monster carport... ----- john - -------------- '94 Chevy Blazer 6.5L TD http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/94-K1500/ '75 J10 hydraulic dump trailer '91 300D 2.5L TD - -------------- '83 J10 stepside with no drivetrain '67 J100 Panel (son's graduation present) - -------------- '47 Bantam T3-C trailer (for sale) '99 WJ for sale / '91 Grand Wag for sale - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the low cost way to send and receive faxes by email! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifCdTy3eVI5WLvniNLwT8ouwOHX jucfyaiLppIJJ3OQWKEyr/ ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2834 **********************************