From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Oct 6 20:23:53 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, October 7 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2877 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] Bad rotors RE: [db] Bad rotors [db] snohomish monster carport update Re: [db] Bad rotors Re: [db] Bad rotors [db] 1996-1999 E 300 Diesel Re: [db] 1996-1999 E 300 Diesel [db] Bad rotors Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:54:59 -0700 From: "Scott Haaland" Subject: RE: [db] Bad rotors I replaced my front rotors about 3.5 years ago on my 1985 190D, and they were great out of the box, but now I'm getting wobbly brakes...haven't even changed the pads once yet. Now I have to ask, is this a manaufacturing defect, something wrong with my brake system, or something about the way I drive? I don't do a lot of mountain driving, or consistently slamming on my brakes over and over to heat them up. In fact, most of the 15,000 miles (probably at least 8 to 10K) on these rotors has been freeway driving from Sacramento to Fresno....hardly 100 feet of elevation change the whole 180 miles....flat, and boring.... (BTW: I don't put a lot of miles on, obviously...) I bought them on-line and I usually try to get OEM parts, and don't even order the cheapest option usually (but may have in this case....looks like they were about $27.40 each, and there is another brand online now for $42.54 each (premium)). I'll probably get them turned, replace the pads, and see what happens....most likely they'll warp again because they'll have even less material after a turning...or maybe I should just order the premium ones and be done for 10 years?? Turning is probably $15 each, and maybe they'll last another year before warping again, if I'm lucky. BTW: I was having this problem with the suburban (96,K2500,4x4,6.5L TD), and finally bought some slotted rotors and special brake pads (Hawk SuperDuty)...they've been good but now I'm getting some "grabbing" and I have to toubleshoot that.... Replaced the rear drums because they were wobbling, and now they are wobbling again too...use some AutoZone type brand....should have known better....even so, they were about $100 each....I've heard you can do a disc conversion for the rear....hmmmm...maybe that's my next project.... Scott - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Paul Masterson Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:18 AM To: diesel-benz list; Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors That usually comes from improper storage in shipping. If they are stacked on their side, or shipped in a big pile, with rotors on top of rotors for a long time, you can see that. I hope that the place you purchased the rotors from turned them for free. Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Frank" To: "diesel-benz list" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 7:25 PM Subject: [db] Bad rotors >I bought a new set of rotors for the wagon. Raybestos. Not expensive, stil >a name brand. Guess what? Not flat, not parallel. After suffering through a >week of juddering brakes, I had my brand new rotors turned. Fine now. Is it >too much to ask for new rotors to be round, flat and parallel? > > Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Bad rotors the absence of asbestos in brake pads has resulted in a lot of warped rotors... the best solution I've found is the power slotted rotors... my benz has the cross-drilled(not recommended) power slotted rotors and they've been on there for over four years... have replaced the front pads many times. :) My 1st '99 WJ got a set of powerslotted rotors and didn't have any issues with it... my current wj hasn't had trouble with warping... we've decided to keep it, it's the best Jeep we've had yet... :) however, we don't drive it... we're running bioDiesel in the blazer and in the benz... my wife keeps referring to the 300d as "her" car... say what? :) she won't drive the blazer... ;) progress is being made on the carport... maybe by the end of the year we'll start the next batch of popcorn with superdawg... who is currently engineless... :) http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/10-Oct-05-carport-garden-cars/ have the roof mostly done... shouldn't get wet inside... next, blocking back wall and windows... then doors... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Scott Haaland wrote: # I replaced my front rotors about 3.5 years ago on my 1985 190D, and they # were great out of the box, but now I'm getting wobbly brakes...haven't even # changed the pads once yet. Now I have to ask, is this a manaufacturing # defect, something wrong with my brake system, or something about the way I # drive? I don't do a lot of mountain driving, or consistently slamming on my # brakes over and over to heat them up. In fact, most of the 15,000 miles # (probably at least 8 to 10K) on these rotors has been freeway driving from # Sacramento to Fresno....hardly 100 feet of elevation change the whole 180 # miles....flat, and boring.... (BTW: I don't put a lot of miles on, # obviously...) # # I bought them on-line and I usually try to get OEM parts, and don't even # order the cheapest option usually (but may have in this case....looks like # they were about $27.40 each, and there is another brand online now for # $42.54 each (premium)). I'll probably get them turned, replace the pads, # and see what happens....most likely they'll warp again because they'll have # even less material after a turning...or maybe I should just order the # premium ones and be done for 10 years?? Turning is probably $15 each, and # maybe they'll last another year before warping again, if I'm lucky. # # BTW: I was having this problem with the suburban (96,K2500,4x4,6.5L TD), and # finally bought some slotted rotors and special brake pads (Hawk # SuperDuty)...they've been good but now I'm getting some "grabbing" and I # have to toubleshoot that.... Replaced the rear drums because they were # wobbling, and now they are wobbling again too...use some AutoZone type # brand....should have known better....even so, they were about $100 # each....I've heard you can do a disc conversion for the # rear....hmmmm...maybe that's my next project.... # # Scott # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On # Behalf Of Paul Masterson # Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:18 AM # To: diesel-benz list; Mike Frank # Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors # # That usually comes from improper storage in shipping. # # If they are stacked on their side, or shipped in a big pile, with rotors on # top of rotors for a long time, you can see that. I hope that the place you # purchased the rotors from turned them for free. # # Paul # # # ----- Original Message ----- # From: "Mike Frank" # To: "diesel-benz list" # Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 7:25 PM # Subject: [db] Bad rotors # # # >I bought a new set of rotors for the wagon. Raybestos. Not expensive, stil # >a name brand. Guess what? Not flat, not parallel. After suffering through a # # >week of juddering brakes, I had my brand new rotors turned. Fine now. Is it # # >too much to ask for new rotors to be round, flat and parallel? # > # > Mike Frank # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] snohomish monster carport update http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/10-Oct-05-carport-garden-cars/ALL.html check out the silly mouse on the panel... mark sees it almost every time he uses it... rebuilding the carport... getting ready for the next popcorn project... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:53:27 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors Rotor warping is all about heat dissipation. Certain driving styles can generate more heat than the rotors can readily get rid of, although I have to wonder just how much heat can be generated in a 190D with the 2.2 engine of that year. ;-) Different pad or rotor materials can do better or worse jobs at dissipating the heat without resulting in bent ("warped") rotors. Slotted or cross-drilled rotors I think are intended to allow additional exit paths for the gases that are generated as the pad material evaporates during braking applications. Unless you're racing/autocrossing, you probably won't be generating enough pad gasses to really need that. >From a warping perspective, slots and cross drills do result in a little more surface area for the rotor, improving the chance of offloading heat. On the other hand, the reduce the mass, reducing the capacity to soak up heat before warpage. The increased biting surfaces may also reduce pad life. Looking on Rusty's site (www.buymbparts.com), it seems your model did not use vented rotors. Most of the larger engined versions, and nearly all of the larger body W124s, used internally vented discs, which are thicker ( to allow space for the radial vents between the solid faces), so they require different calipers that are designed to wrap around thicker discs. you'd have to change calipers to be able to use vented rotors. I suppose it's possible that if your calipers are not in perfect condition, the pad on one side of the rotor could be pressing harder than the other pad, producing a temperature differential that would really encourage warping. I say turn the rotors, and really clean up your calipers. Then when you finally replace these rotors, try a different brand, even if it's a little more expensive. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 08 smart fortwo, 9K On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Scott Haaland wrote: > I replaced my front rotors about 3.5 years ago on my 1985 190D, and they > were great out of the box, but now I'm getting wobbly brakes...haven't even > changed the pads once yet. Now I have to ask, is this a manaufacturing > defect, something wrong with my brake system, or something about the way I > drive? I don't do a lot of mountain driving, or consistently slamming on > my > brakes over and over to heat them up. In fact, most of the 15,000 miles > (probably at least 8 to 10K) on these rotors has been freeway driving from > Sacramento to Fresno....hardly 100 feet of elevation change the whole 180 > miles....flat, and boring.... (BTW: I don't put a lot of miles on, > obviously...) > > I bought them on-line and I usually try to get OEM parts, and don't even > order the cheapest option usually (but may have in this case....looks like > they were about $27.40 each, and there is another brand online now for > $42.54 each (premium)). I'll probably get them turned, replace the pads, > and see what happens....most likely they'll warp again because they'll have > even less material after a turning...or maybe I should just order the > premium ones and be done for 10 years?? Turning is probably $15 each, and > maybe they'll last another year before warping again, if I'm lucky. > > BTW: I was having this problem with the suburban (96,K2500,4x4,6.5L TD), > and > finally bought some slotted rotors and special brake pads (Hawk > SuperDuty)...they've been good but now I'm getting some "grabbing" and I > have to toubleshoot that.... Replaced the rear drums because they were > wobbling, and now they are wobbling again too...use some AutoZone type > brand....should have known better....even so, they were about $100 > each....I've heard you can do a disc conversion for the > rear....hmmmm...maybe that's my next project.... > > Scott > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On > Behalf Of Paul Masterson > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:18 AM > To: diesel-benz list; Mike Frank > Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors > > That usually comes from improper storage in shipping. > > If they are stacked on their side, or shipped in a big pile, with rotors on > top of rotors for a long time, you can see that. I hope that the place you > purchased the rotors from turned them for free. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Frank" > To: "diesel-benz list" > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 7:25 PM > Subject: [db] Bad rotors > > > >I bought a new set of rotors for the wagon. Raybestos. Not expensive, stil > >a name brand. Guess what? Not flat, not parallel. After suffering through > a > > >week of juddering brakes, I had my brand new rotors turned. Fine now. Is > it > > >too much to ask for new rotors to be round, flat and parallel? > > > > Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:41:52 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors Just to make this clear. My rotors weren't warped. They were .003" out of parallel, and they were made that way. The rear sides had a slight taper. Here's a great article on the "myths of the warped rotor" by Carroll Smith: http://www.centricparts.com/Centric%20White%20Paper%20B1-Warped%20Brake%20Disc.pdf Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:25:09 -0400 From: Rajeev Wijesinghe Subject: [db] 1996-1999 E 300 Diesel Hello, My apologies if this is a repeat question. Unfortunately, my 1983 300 SD had to be retired a few weeks ago. My current daily driver is a Ford Five-Hundred, whose lease I can't wait to end in the next coming months. For my next vehicle, I am seriously eyeing a 1996-1999 E300 Diesel as my everyday vehicle. Are there any words of wisdom you can share? I really want to get back into a Diesel Benz, but want to be sure of what I will get into. Are there any items I should be aware of or pay extra attention to? I live in Toronto Canada, where as you know, winter temperatures can get very cold - are there any of you who drive a 96-99 Diesel in a similar climate? Any expensive maintenance items to watch for? Any words you can share would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Rajeev Wijesinghe _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:07:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 1996-1999 E 300 Diesel I think I would aim for the '87 to '93 models... but we'll wait to hear from the resident owner of a '99 model. :) I believe I've heard that in the mid-90's benz took a dive in quality... a few folks on the list have some... JB and Mike for instance... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Rajeev Wijesinghe wrote: # Hello, # # My apologies if this is a repeat question. # # Unfortunately, my 1983 300 SD had to be retired a few weeks ago. My current # daily driver is a Ford Five-Hundred, whose lease I can't wait to end in the # next coming months. # # For my next vehicle, I am seriously eyeing a 1996-1999 E300 Diesel as my # everyday vehicle. Are there any words of wisdom you can share? I really want # to get back into a Diesel Benz, but want to be sure of what I will get into. # Are there any items I should be aware of or pay extra attention to? I live in # Toronto Canada, where as you know, winter temperatures can get very cold - are # there any of you who drive a 96-99 Diesel in a similar climate? Any expensive # maintenance items to watch for? # # Any words you can share would be greatly appreciated. # # Thank you. # # Rajeev Wijesinghe # _________________________________________________________________ # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:10:54 -0700 From: "Roy Sharp" Subject: [db] Bad rotors A couple of things might be involved... If the rears are driven with emergency brake on, even a short distance, the drums may get so hot and expanded that when parked with emergency brake on tight, it may be oval permanently. The resulting pulsating may be felt through the pedal during normal driving. The disks of thick, heavy cast iron on front are needed to absorb a lot of heat and reradiate it. It is not uncommon for brake shop to turn them down too thin to meet MBZ minimum specs, sometimes because when they mount them on the disk lathe, they are not concentric, start turning, discover error then remount correctly and turn them too thin while trying to get complete cleanup. If they don't clean up and they mount them; pulsation. If there is any water condensed in the brake lines, it normally ends up in the lowest part; wheel cylinders, under the brake fluid. Hard use could turn water to expanding steam that drags the brakes harder, etc., etc. Roy Sharp - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Haaland" To: "'diesel-benz list'" Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 12:54 PM Subject: RE: [db] Bad rotors >I replaced my front rotors about 3.5 years ago on my 1985 190D, and they > were great out of the box, but now I'm getting wobbly brakes...haven't > even > changed the pads once yet. Now I have to ask, is this a manaufacturing > defect, something wrong with my brake system, or something about the way I > drive? I don't do a lot of mountain driving, or consistently slamming on > my > brakes over and over to heat them up. In fact, most of the 15,000 miles > (probably at least 8 to 10K) on these rotors has been freeway driving from > Sacramento to Fresno....hardly 100 feet of elevation change the whole 180 > miles....flat, and boring.... (BTW: I don't put a lot of miles on, > obviously...) > > I bought them on-line and I usually try to get OEM parts, and don't even > order the cheapest option usually (but may have in this case....looks like > they were about $27.40 each, and there is another brand online now for > $42.54 each (premium)). I'll probably get them turned, replace the pads, > and see what happens....most likely they'll warp again because they'll > have > even less material after a turning...or maybe I should just order the > premium ones and be done for 10 years?? Turning is probably $15 each, and > maybe they'll last another year before warping again, if I'm lucky. > > BTW: I was having this problem with the suburban (96,K2500,4x4,6.5L TD), > and > finally bought some slotted rotors and special brake pads (Hawk > SuperDuty)...they've been good but now I'm getting some "grabbing" and I > have to toubleshoot that.... Replaced the rear drums because they were > wobbling, and now they are wobbling again too...use some AutoZone type > brand....should have known better....even so, they were about $100 > each....I've heard you can do a disc conversion for the > rear....hmmmm...maybe that's my next project.... > > Scott > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On > Behalf Of Paul Masterson > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:18 AM > To: diesel-benz list; Mike Frank > Subject: Re: [db] Bad rotors > > That usually comes from improper storage in shipping. > > If they are stacked on their side, or shipped in a big pile, with rotors > on > top of rotors for a long time, you can see that. I hope that the place you > purchased the rotors from turned them for free. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Frank" > To: "diesel-benz list" > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 7:25 PM > Subject: [db] Bad rotors > > >>I bought a new set of rotors for the wagon. Raybestos. Not expensive, stil >>a name brand. Guess what? Not flat, not parallel. After suffering through >>a > >>week of juddering brakes, I had my brand new rotors turned. Fine now. Is >>it > >>too much to ask for new rotors to be round, flat and parallel? >> >> Mike Frank 5:37 PM ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2877 **********************************