From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Tue Nov 11 18:08:28 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, November 12 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2901 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? [db] RE: Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? [db] transmissions [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? Vince, What country are you in? I can start searching for parts and info there. The 5 speed auto is the 545RFE, it's basically the 45RFE with an extra gear, I believe it's the same case. The VM engines aren't as desired, but they're better than the Renault 2.1L TD I had in my 85 XJ. :) the 2.7 CRD would be my first choice, is that the one they put in the sprinters? Sounds like the RFE trans was mated to a number of Diesels... this is promising at that level... but finding one and all the computers will be a challenge. Biggest issue for me will be making all the computers work on the WJ. If I can make the gauges and speedo, climate control and lights and such work with a Mercedes Diesel and AT mated to the Jeep xfr case I'll be happy. will find out tomorrow if I will be working on this project.... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Vincent Bentley wrote: # The 3.1L diesel is a VM engine. I am sure it was a 5 cylinder based on the # European XJ's 2.5TDi VM engine. It was not a popular choice with new Jeep # buyers. However, the MB powered 2.7CRD quickly became the most commonly seen # WG as this engine was far better and comparable to the V8. # # We have a VM 2.8CRD in a 4-door Wrangler, it has a 5-speed Auto and I am # fairly sure it is the same transmission that was in our European WJ(WG) 4.7L # V8. # # -Vince- # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: 11 November 2008 08:47 # To: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com; # ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net; David Ashby; xj-list # Subject: xj: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? # # I was looking through a factory shop manual for the '99 WJ and stumbled upon # the 3.1L 5 cylinder turbo Diesel... say what? # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/Factory_Service_WJ_1999.pdf # # anyone in Europe know anything about this? # # What kind of controller does it use? could I adapt a Mercedes 2.5 or 3.0 to # work # with this thing??? :) # # Does it use the 45RFE? # # considering the price of a replacement 4.7L V8, this might be economically # feasible... # well, feasible if I sell my Blazer, my Panel, my coin collection... # and win the lottery... :) # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ # SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com # SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:05:43 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] RE: Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? guess the next question will be what Diesels can mate to this and what computer signals are required to operate the trans? This wiki page has a lot of useful info on it... :) thanx Joe! john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Joe Hughes wrote: # It's my understanding that the 545RFE and 45RFE are the same transmission # with different programming to enable the 5th forward gear. # # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_45RFE_transmission # # Joe H. # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 8:14 AM # To: xj-at-digest.net # Cc: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com; full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; David # Ashby; ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net # Subject: fsj: Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? # # Vince, # # What country are you in? I can start searching for parts and info there. # # The 5 speed auto is the 545RFE, it's basically the 45RFE with an extra gear, # I believe it's the same case. # # The VM engines aren't as desired, but they're better than the Renault 2.1L # TD # I had in my 85 XJ. :) # # the 2.7 CRD would be my first choice, is that the one they put in the # sprinters? # # Sounds like the RFE trans was mated to a number of Diesels... this is # promising # at that level... but finding one and all the computers will be a challenge. # # Biggest issue for me will be making all the computers work on the WJ. If I # can make the gauges and speedo, climate control and lights and such work # with a Mercedes Diesel and AT mated to the Jeep xfr case I'll be happy. # # will find out tomorrow if I will be working on this project.... # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ # SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com # SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Vincent Bentley wrote: # # # The 3.1L diesel is a VM engine. I am sure it was a 5 cylinder based on # the # # European XJ's 2.5TDi VM engine. It was not a popular choice with new Jeep # # buyers. However, the MB powered 2.7CRD quickly became the most commonly # seen # # WG as this engine was far better and comparable to the V8. # # # # We have a VM 2.8CRD in a 4-door Wrangler, it has a 5-speed Auto and I am # # fairly sure it is the same transmission that was in our European WJ(WG) # 4.7L # # V8. # # # # -Vince- # # # # -----Original Message----- # # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # # Sent: 11 November 2008 08:47 # # To: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com; # # ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net; David Ashby; xj-list # # Subject: xj: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? # # # # I was looking through a factory shop manual for the '99 WJ and stumbled # upon # # the 3.1L 5 cylinder turbo Diesel... say what? # # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/Factory_Service_WJ_1999.pdf # # # # anyone in Europe know anything about this? # # # # What kind of controller does it use? could I adapt a Mercedes 2.5 or 3.0 # to # # work # # with this thing??? :) # # # # Does it use the 45RFE? # # # # considering the price of a replacement 4.7L V8, this might be # economically # # feasible... # # well, feasible if I sell my Blazer, my Panel, my coin collection... # # and win the lottery... :) # # # # john # # # # ----- # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # # http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ # # SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # # SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com # # SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? Someone wrote an article about the Diesel WJ a few years back, and it had NONE of this kind of info... this is great stuff! Thanx Darren! I've been looking through the wiring diagrams and connectors and am thinking that the wiring up of a Diesel into a WJ may not be all that bad. There are a few systems I may need to learn about to "dummy up", possibly things like MAP sensors and such, but we'll see. the 45RFE that I have should mate up to these engines: * 45RFE o 1999.2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee (4.7L) o 2000-2002 Dodge Dakota (4.7L) o 2000-2002 Dodge Durango (4.7L) o 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 (3.7L and 4.7L) * 545RFE o 2001. Jeep Grand Cherokee (4.7L, 4.7L H.O., 5.7L Hemi) o 2002-2007 Jeep Liberty (2002-early 2003 3.7L, and all diesel applications) o 2003. Dodge Ram (3.7L, 4.7L, 5.7L Hemi) o 2003. Dodge Dakota (4.7L, 4.7L H.O.) o 2003- Dodge Durango (4.7L, 5.7L) o 2006- Jeep Commander (4.7L, 5.7L Hemi) the 545RFE is just a reprogrammed/geared version of the 45RFE. I stumbled upon a site that has connector info, grabbed some of the info. Same kind of thing you'd find in the wiring diagrams... nothing extraordinary, but may be useful... http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WIRING/ Tomorrow we find out if I'm saddled with the WJ project... the costs of a rebuilt engine is major... finding a used engine is dicey... Going Diesel seems to be a great idea and possibly not as overwhelming as I first thought... :) Stephen R. on your XJ VM Motori Diesel are there any sensors going into your wiring harness? thanx, john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Darren K. Page wrote: Some Google exercices: Site 1: Impressive mileage: : "3.1-LITRE TURBO DIESEL With a third of Jeep Grand Cherokee sales in Europe featuring diesel powerplants, the all-new 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel engine, is a significant option for drivers keen to use the massive pulling power of a diesel unit for the toughest off-road jobs such as towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes. The 3.1 TD, built at VM Motors in Cento, Italy, is the first ever diesel-engined Jeep to be fitted with an automatic transmission as standard, and can tow loads of up to 3500 kg. The beefy five cylinder 3125 cc Turbo Diesel is smoothly responsive, marrying power, economy and civilised on-road use, to storming off-road capability thanks to its massive 283 lb ft of torque, and a power rating of 138 bhp at 3600 rpm. None of which does anything to diminish the diesel's forecourt-shy economy. Driving more than 700 miles on a tank of fuel is a feat for any car. But the Turbo Diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee will do just that. This is no idle marketing boast, as a 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel travelled all the way from Dover to the North East of Scotland on just one tank of fuel, averaging a miserly 43 mpg, and covering 735 miles (1,176 kilometres) on 78 litres. That works out at an average 42.86 mpg or 6.63 l/100 km. Official economy figures show the Turbo Diesel returns 29.1 mpg extra urban, 24.1 mpg combined, and 19.5 mpg urban cycle. To minimise noise and vibration, the diesel engine, transmission and transfer case include a set of interconnecting steel struts similar to those used in the 4.0-litre petrol engine. These struts increase the natural vibration frequency of the assembly, which removes a source of annoying vibration. The vibration is further reduced thanks to a new direct-mount air conditioning compressor, as well as improvements to the compact alternator and power steering brackets. A single serpentine belt with automatic tensioner drives all the engine-mounted accessories, which reduces peak bearing loads for quieter operation. Steve Gray, General Manager Marketing for Chrysler and Jeep says: "Now it is possible to have all of the benefits of the diesel engine with the sophistication and ease of operation of automatic transmission." >From above, tranny reference 1: *** "The 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel is partnered with a thoroughly re-engineered version of the 44RE electronically controlled four-speed transmission," *** Site 2: The 3.0 V6 uses a Mercedes W5A580 automatic transmission, food for thought John? Darren Page -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: xj: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? I was looking through a factory shop manual for the '99 WJ and stumbled upon the 3.1L 5 cylinder turbo Diesel... say what? http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/Factory_Service_WJ_1999.pdf ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:07:45 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] transmissions stumbled on this site: http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Tranisite/mercedes.htm ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:06:59 +0000 From: "Stephen Rigley" Subject: [db] Re: xj: RE: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? Hey John, Yeah, a couple.. head water temp, #1 cylinder injector sensor, oil pressure sensor (I assume you aren't talking about stuff like the fuel heater/water in fuel sensor/coolant level/etc?)... actually.. have a look at this site.. same engine, just ignore the ford stuff (same engine was in the Rover 620/625 too) use the menu on the left : http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/electric.htm Oh.. the best forum I've found for Diesel XJ info is the Oz based (great guys BTW): http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=123 Also, if you want the shop manual for the Diesel XJ, pop me a mail with your address off-list and I'll let you keep an "offsite copy" safe for me ;-) Steve P.S. BTW, became a Dad last Wed so been busy ;-) On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:58 PM, john wrote: > Someone wrote an article about the Diesel WJ a few years back, > and it had NONE of this kind of info... this is great stuff! Thanx Darren! > > I've been looking through the wiring diagrams and connectors and am > thinking > that the wiring up of a Diesel into a WJ may not be all that bad. There > are a few systems I may need to learn about to "dummy up", possibly things > like MAP sensors and such, but we'll see. > > the 45RFE that I have should mate up to these engines: > * 45RFE > o 1999.2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee (4.7L) > o 2000-2002 Dodge Dakota (4.7L) > o 2000-2002 Dodge Durango (4.7L) > o 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 (3.7L and 4.7L) > * 545RFE > o 2001. Jeep Grand Cherokee (4.7L, 4.7L H.O., 5.7L Hemi) > o 2002-2007 Jeep Liberty (2002-early 2003 3.7L, and all diesel > applications) > o 2003. Dodge Ram (3.7L, 4.7L, 5.7L Hemi) > o 2003. Dodge Dakota (4.7L, 4.7L H.O.) > o 2003- Dodge Durango (4.7L, 5.7L) > o 2006- Jeep Commander (4.7L, 5.7L Hemi) > > the 545RFE is just a reprogrammed/geared version of the 45RFE. > > I stumbled upon a site that has connector info, grabbed some of the info. > Same kind of thing you'd find in > the wiring diagrams... nothing extraordinary, but may be useful... > http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WIRING/ > > Tomorrow we find out if I'm saddled with the WJ project... the costs of a > rebuilt > engine is major... finding a used engine is dicey... Going Diesel seems to > be a great > idea and possibly not as overwhelming as I first thought... :) > > Stephen R. on your XJ VM Motori Diesel are there any sensors going into > your wiring harness? > > thanx, > john > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ > SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Darren K. Page wrote: > > Some Google exercices: > > Site 1: > > Impressive mileage: > : > > "3.1-LITRE TURBO DIESEL > > With a third of Jeep Grand Cherokee sales in Europe featuring diesel > powerplants, the all-new 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel engine, is a significant > option for drivers keen to use the massive pulling power of a diesel unit > for the toughest off-road jobs such as towing trailers, caravans and > horseboxes. The 3.1 TD, built at VM Motors in Cento, Italy, is the first > ever diesel-engined Jeep to be fitted with an automatic transmission as > standard, and can tow loads of up to 3500 kg. > > The beefy five cylinder 3125 cc Turbo Diesel is smoothly responsive, > marrying power, economy and civilised on-road use, to storming off-road > capability thanks to its massive 283 lb ft of torque, and a power rating > of > 138 bhp at 3600 rpm. > > None of which does anything to diminish the diesel's forecourt-shy > economy. > Driving more than 700 miles on a tank of fuel is a feat for any car. But > the > Turbo Diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee will do just that. This is no idle > marketing boast, as a 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel travelled all the way from > Dover to the North East of Scotland on just one tank of fuel, averaging a > miserly 43 mpg, and covering 735 miles (1,176 kilometres) on 78 litres. > That > works out at an average 42.86 mpg or 6.63 l/100 km. Official economy > figures > show the Turbo Diesel returns 29.1 mpg extra urban, 24.1 mpg combined, and > 19.5 mpg urban cycle. > > To minimise noise and vibration, the diesel engine, transmission and > transfer case include a set of interconnecting steel struts similar to > those > used in the 4.0-litre petrol engine. These struts increase the natural > vibration frequency of the assembly, which removes a source of annoying > vibration. The vibration is further reduced thanks to a new direct-mount > air > conditioning compressor, as well as improvements to the compact alternator > and power steering brackets. A single serpentine belt with automatic > tensioner drives all the engine-mounted accessories, which reduces peak > bearing loads for quieter operation. > > Steve Gray, General Manager Marketing for Chrysler and Jeep says: "Now it > is > possible to have all of the benefits of the diesel engine with the > sophistication and ease of operation of automatic transmission." > > >From above, tranny reference 1: > *** "The 3.1-litre Turbo Diesel is partnered with a thoroughly > re-engineered > version of the 44RE electronically controlled four-speed transmission," > *** > > Site 2: > > > > The 3.0 V6 uses a Mercedes W5A580 automatic transmission, food for thought > John? > > Darren Page > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:47 AM > Subject: xj: 3.1L Turbo Diesel in a WJ? > > I was looking through a factory shop manual for the '99 WJ and stumbled > upon > the 3.1L 5 cylinder turbo Diesel... say what? > http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/Factory_Service_WJ_1999.pdf > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2901 **********************************