From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Mar 12 17:00:17 2009 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, March 12 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3021 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:36:48 -0500 From: "Potter, Tom E" Subject: RE: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires I agree; it sounds like a fuel starvation problem. Tom Potter - -----Original Message----- From: Jerome Kaidor [mailto:jerry-at-tr4.tr2.com] Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:25 PM To: Potter, Tom E Cc: Jerome Kaidor; diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Potter, Tom E wrote: > > Just some thoughts: > > You need to determine if it is a fuel or ignition problem. When it is > hard to start, try a LITTLE starting fluid. *** Pretty sure it's a fuel problem. I've been temp-fixing it by putting in injector cleaner with my pressure tool. But I'll get some starter fluid, and if it does a hard start on me ( they are actually somewhat rare, mostly on rainy days, and it's stopped raining... ). If it starts right up with > the starting fluid, this USUALLY indicates a fuel delivery problem. If > this has no effect, this USUALLY indicates an ignition problem. > > Since this is an injected engine, it should have a cold start system (an > additional injector in the intake or something). This may be > malfunctioning. Also, the computer has several temperature inputs > (intake air temp, engine temp, etc.). One of these feedbacks may be > malfunctioning. > > Since this is a GM vehicle, I assume it has an in-tank fuel pump with a > sock filter. The filter may be plugged or the pump failing. *** I'll take a look this weekend. The pressure readings are reasonable, though. I suppose I could test the pump for volume by hooking up the pressure tester without its pressure cap - and see how long it takes the system to fill up the pressure pot - whose volume I can calculate. To get at the fuel pump, I need to drain & remove the tank :(. Somebody else mentioned a flex hose between the actual pump and the top of the tank - could be internally collapsed. - Jerry > > Tom Potter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On Behalf Of Jerome Kaidor > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:06 PM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires > > Hi Guys, > > This is TOTALLY off topic, but I'm at my wits end, and am searching > for > input from all my car buddies: > > Chevy Truck Story > > My '99 Chevy Astro cargo van is having a problem. Pretty much at my > wits > end. > Symptoms include > > * Intermittant stumbling off idle, at low RPMS and loads. > * Occasional hard starts - you crank and crank and crank and no start. > * OBDII codes of * P0300 ( misfires on various cylinders ) > * and P0155 ( malfunction of R/H oxygen sensor heater ) > > > Troubleshooting history: > > This problem started about 2 years ago. At first, I took the P0155 > trouble code at face value, and replaced the R/H front oxygen sensor. > No joy. > I figured that the "heater test" just looks at the signal from the O2 > sensor and > expects it to come "live" in a few seconds. If not, bad heater, right? > Well, maybe not. Other failures can prevent the mixture from being in a > reasonable range. > > Then I thought it was electrical. I replaced the > sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, all to no effect. I > hooked up > an oscilloscope and saw that misfires coincided with very high voltage > readings. > > Then I looked at the fuel system, because spark voltage is dependant > on > mixture strength. I read that these vehicles have a history of sticking > fuel > injector poppet valves due to California gas. I bought a cannister fuel > injector > cleaner - the kind that you hook up to an air compressor. With that > tool, I was able to get the truck running fairly well - well enough and > long > enough to pass smog. > > For the intervening two years, I put up with it. When there was a > hard > start, I would trot out the pressure cleaner and get it running again. > Long > trips would make it run better. > > I did take the car to the Putnam GM with instructions to check it for > sticking fuel injectors. And, hopefully to replace them on the GM > extended emissions > warranty. They said that the fuel injectors were fine, but that I > needed a new oxygen > sensor aft of the catalytic converter to correct the P0155 code. And > that I owed them $240 for > diagnostic. I paid them the $240, took my truck home before they could > rape me any worse, > and replaced the aft oxygen sensor. No change. > > > Now it needs to be smogged again. Per the instructions in GM special > service policy > 99066G, I replaced the fuel injector spider with the new improved MFI > system. This replaces > all six fuel injectors with a new design with no poppet valves, and also > replaces the > fuel pressure regulator. I also replaced the fuel filter. > > I really expected the fuel injector replacement to fix the problem > once > and for all, and was very disappointed when it did not. The truck still > intermittantly > stumbles off idle, and occasionally starts very hard. Hard starts > generally coincide with > dark, cold, rainy days. Cleaning with the pressure tool fixes it. I am > also still getting > OBDII codes of P0300 and P0155. The sensor passes the "hold it and > feel the heat" test - > in other words, the heater is indeed heating. > > I decided to look at the ignition again. I did not connect any > diagnostic equipment to it, but just got a spray bottle of water, set it > to "mist" > and liberally misted the entire ignition system while the > engine was running. No effect, the engine didn't miss a beat. > > Now I'm pretty stumped. The only guidence left from GM bulletin > 99066G is > that the fuel filler pipe may need replacement because California gas > eats it and the melted plastic > goes through the system.... Seems farfetched to me, but I have a new > pipe on order. > > I have hooked up a pressure gauge to the injection rail. Am seeing > the > following readings: > > * Engine not running, turn on the ignition: 61PSI > * Turn the ignition off, wait 10 minutes: 45PSI > * Engine idling: 54 PSI > * Stomp on the gas, running full blast up the hill: 58PSI. > > Anybody have a clue? > > - Jerry "clueless" Kaidor ( > jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires long shot, but I'm helping a friend with his '90 300E and just replaced all his injectors, similiar troubles... hard starting, stumbling, etc... so I had him call my mechanic... mechanic says check the coolant temperature sensor... he's coming over this weekend for me to mess up my back some more, I mean help him with is car. ;) will let you know if that works. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, Jerome Kaidor wrote: # Hi Guys, # # This is TOTALLY off topic, but I'm at my wits end, and am searching for # input from all my car buddies: # # Chevy Truck Story # # My '99 Chevy Astro cargo van is having a problem. Pretty much at my wits # end. # Symptoms include # # * Intermittant stumbling off idle, at low RPMS and loads. # * Occasional hard starts - you crank and crank and crank and no start. # * OBDII codes of * P0300 ( misfires on various cylinders ) # * and P0155 ( malfunction of R/H oxygen sensor heater ) # # # Troubleshooting history: # # This problem started about 2 years ago. At first, I took the P0155 # trouble code at face value, and replaced the R/H front oxygen sensor. No joy. # I figured that the "heater test" just looks at the signal from the O2 sensor and # expects it to come "live" in a few seconds. If not, bad heater, right? # Well, maybe not. Other failures can prevent the mixture from being in a # reasonable range. # # Then I thought it was electrical. I replaced the # sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, all to no effect. I hooked up # an oscilloscope and saw that misfires coincided with very high voltage readings. # # Then I looked at the fuel system, because spark voltage is dependant on # mixture strength. I read that these vehicles have a history of sticking fuel # injector poppet valves due to California gas. I bought a cannister fuel injector # cleaner - the kind that you hook up to an air compressor. With that # tool, I was able to get the truck running fairly well - well enough and long # enough to pass smog. # # For the intervening two years, I put up with it. When there was a hard # start, I would trot out the pressure cleaner and get it running again. Long # trips would make it run better. # # I did take the car to the Putnam GM with instructions to check it for # sticking fuel injectors. And, hopefully to replace them on the GM extended emissions # warranty. They said that the fuel injectors were fine, but that I needed a new oxygen # sensor aft of the catalytic converter to correct the P0155 code. And that I owed them $240 for # diagnostic. I paid them the $240, took my truck home before they could rape me any worse, # and replaced the aft oxygen sensor. No change. # # # Now it needs to be smogged again. Per the instructions in GM special service policy # 99066G, I replaced the fuel injector spider with the new improved MFI system. This replaces # all six fuel injectors with a new design with no poppet valves, and also replaces the # fuel pressure regulator. I also replaced the fuel filter. # # I really expected the fuel injector replacement to fix the problem once # and for all, and was very disappointed when it did not. The truck still intermittantly # stumbles off idle, and occasionally starts very hard. Hard starts generally coincide with # dark, cold, rainy days. Cleaning with the pressure tool fixes it. I am also still getting # OBDII codes of P0300 and P0155. The sensor passes the "hold it and feel the heat" test - # in other words, the heater is indeed heating. # # I decided to look at the ignition again. I did not connect any # diagnostic equipment to it, but just got a spray bottle of water, set it to "mist" # and liberally misted the entire ignition system while the # engine was running. No effect, the engine didn't miss a beat. # # Now I'm pretty stumped. The only guidence left from GM bulletin 99066G is # that the fuel filler pipe may need replacement because California gas eats it and the melted plastic # goes through the system.... Seems farfetched to me, but I have a new pipe on order. # # I have hooked up a pressure gauge to the injection rail. Am seeing the # following readings: # # * Engine not running, turn on the ignition: 61PSI # * Turn the ignition off, wait 10 minutes: 45PSI # * Engine idling: 54 PSI # * Stomp on the gas, running full blast up the hill: 58PSI. # # Anybody have a clue? # # - Jerry "clueless" Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:00:31 +0000 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires Sounds like it might be a coolant temp sensor to me too.. it'll send a "keep her rich" until it gets to X temp to help cold start. I'd also clean up any ground points. Steve On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:57 PM, john wrote: > long shot, but I'm helping a friend with his '90 300E and > just replaced all his injectors, similiar troubles... hard starting, > stumbling, etc... so I had him call my mechanic... mechanic > says check the coolant temperature sensor... > > he's coming over this weekend for me to mess up my back some more, I > mean help him with is car. ;) will let you know if that works. > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > # Hi Guys, > # > # This is TOTALLY off topic, but I'm at my wits end, and am searching > for > # input from all my car buddies: > # > # Chevy Truck Story > # > # My '99 Chevy Astro cargo van is having a problem. Pretty much at my > wits > # end. > # Symptoms include > # > # * Intermittant stumbling off idle, at low RPMS and loads. > # * Occasional hard starts - you crank and crank and crank and no start. > # * OBDII codes of * P0300 ( misfires on various cylinders ) > # * and P0155 ( malfunction of R/H oxygen sensor heater ) > # > # > # Troubleshooting history: > # > # This problem started about 2 years ago. At first, I took the P0155 > # trouble code at face value, and replaced the R/H front oxygen sensor. > No joy. > # I figured that the "heater test" just looks at the signal from the O2 > sensor and > # expects it to come "live" in a few seconds. If not, bad heater, right? > # Well, maybe not. Other failures can prevent the mixture from being in a > # reasonable range. > # > # Then I thought it was electrical. I replaced the > # sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, all to no effect. I > hooked up > # an oscilloscope and saw that misfires coincided with very high voltage > readings. > # > # Then I looked at the fuel system, because spark voltage is dependant > on > # mixture strength. I read that these vehicles have a history of sticking > fuel > # injector poppet valves due to California gas. I bought a cannister fuel > injector > # cleaner - the kind that you hook up to an air compressor. With that > # tool, I was able to get the truck running fairly well - well enough and > long > # enough to pass smog. > # > # For the intervening two years, I put up with it. When there was a > hard > # start, I would trot out the pressure cleaner and get it running again. > Long > # trips would make it run better. > # > # I did take the car to the Putnam GM with instructions to check it for > # sticking fuel injectors. And, hopefully to replace them on the GM > extended emissions > # warranty. They said that the fuel injectors were fine, but that I > needed a new oxygen > # sensor aft of the catalytic converter to correct the P0155 code. And > that I owed them $240 for > # diagnostic. I paid them the $240, took my truck home before they could > rape me any worse, > # and replaced the aft oxygen sensor. No change. > # > # > # Now it needs to be smogged again. Per the instructions in GM special > service policy > # 99066G, I replaced the fuel injector spider with the new improved MFI > system. This replaces > # all six fuel injectors with a new design with no poppet valves, and also > replaces the > # fuel pressure regulator. I also replaced the fuel filter. > # > # I really expected the fuel injector replacement to fix the problem > once > # and for all, and was very disappointed when it did not. The truck still > intermittantly > # stumbles off idle, and occasionally starts very hard. Hard starts > generally coincide with > # dark, cold, rainy days. Cleaning with the pressure tool fixes it. I am > also still getting > # OBDII codes of P0300 and P0155. The sensor passes the "hold it and > feel the heat" test - > # in other words, the heater is indeed heating. > # > # I decided to look at the ignition again. I did not connect any > # diagnostic equipment to it, but just got a spray bottle of water, set it > to "mist" > # and liberally misted the entire ignition system while the > # engine was running. No effect, the engine didn't miss a beat. > # > # Now I'm pretty stumped. The only guidence left from GM bulletin > 99066G is > # that the fuel filler pipe may need replacement because California gas > eats it and the melted plastic > # goes through the system.... Seems farfetched to me, but I have a new > pipe on order. > # > # I have hooked up a pressure gauge to the injection rail. Am seeing > the > # following readings: > # > # * Engine not running, turn on the ignition: 61PSI > # * Turn the ignition off, wait 10 minutes: 45PSI > # * Engine idling: 54 PSI > # * Stomp on the gas, running full blast up the hill: 58PSI. > # > # Anybody have a clue? > # > # - Jerry "clueless" Kaidor ( > jerry-at-tr2.com ) > # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:48:33 -0400 (EDT) From: ejpomeroy-at-qtm.net Subject: Re: [db] OT Chevy Astro misfires My daughters Sable had some of these symptoms. Drove them nuts trying to find the source. Finally, pulled the crankshaft sensor out of the front timing cover, full of crud and metal dust from god knows what, cleaned it, put it back in and the "crank no start" went away as did the misfires when running. Cheap part, 25 bucks for a new one from Ford but so far just the cleaning did the trick. I suggest you locate and clean every sensor you can get your hands on starting with that one as it tells the ECU when to send a pulse to the coil pack. Also check the ground wires related to the ECU and the Coil pack. Apparently a bad ground there does some of the same for symptoms. Mercury uses a three coil pack that fires two cylinders at a time, one at compression and one at exhaust for some odd reason. Hope that helps. Had also heard about GM cars being finicky on sealed gas tanks that are not sealed but can't imagine that is the main no start dulprit. Edward > Hi Guys, > > This is TOTALLY off topic, but I'm at my wits end, and am searching for > input from all my car buddies: > > Chevy Truck Story > > My '99 Chevy Astro cargo van is having a problem. Pretty much at my wits > end. > Symptoms include > > * Intermittant stumbling off idle, at low RPMS and loads. > * Occasional hard starts - you crank and crank and crank and no start. > * OBDII codes of * P0300 ( misfires on various cylinders ) > * and P0155 ( malfunction of R/H oxygen sensor heater ) > > > Troubleshooting history: > > This problem started about 2 years ago. At first, I took the P0155 > trouble code at face value, and replaced the R/H front oxygen sensor. No > joy. > I figured that the "heater test" just looks at the signal from the O2 > sensor and > expects it to come "live" in a few seconds. If not, bad heater, right? > Well, maybe not. Other failures can prevent the mixture from being in a > reasonable range. > > Then I thought it was electrical. I replaced the > sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor, all to no effect. I hooked > up > an oscilloscope and saw that misfires coincided with very high voltage > readings. > > Then I looked at the fuel system, because spark voltage is dependant on > mixture strength. I read that these vehicles have a history of sticking > fuel > injector poppet valves due to California gas. I bought a cannister fuel > injector > cleaner - the kind that you hook up to an air compressor. With that > tool, I was able to get the truck running fairly well - well enough and > long > enough to pass smog. > > For the intervening two years, I put up with it. When there was a hard > start, I would trot out the pressure cleaner and get it running again. > Long > trips would make it run better. > > I did take the car to the Putnam GM with instructions to check it for > sticking fuel injectors. And, hopefully to replace them on the GM extended > emissions > warranty. They said that the fuel injectors were fine, but that I needed > a new oxygen > sensor aft of the catalytic converter to correct the P0155 code. And that > I owed them $240 for > diagnostic. I paid them the $240, took my truck home before they could > rape me any worse, > and replaced the aft oxygen sensor. No change. > > > Now it needs to be smogged again. Per the instructions in GM special > service policy > 99066G, I replaced the fuel injector spider with the new improved MFI > system. This replaces > all six fuel injectors with a new design with no poppet valves, and also > replaces the > fuel pressure regulator. I also replaced the fuel filter. > > I really expected the fuel injector replacement to fix the problem once > and for all, and was very disappointed when it did not. The truck still > intermittantly > stumbles off idle, and occasionally starts very hard. Hard starts > generally coincide with > dark, cold, rainy days. Cleaning with the pressure tool fixes it. I am > also still getting > OBDII codes of P0300 and P0155. The sensor passes the "hold it and feel > the heat" test - > in other words, the heater is indeed heating. > > I decided to look at the ignition again. I did not connect any > diagnostic equipment to it, but just got a spray bottle of water, set it > to "mist" > and liberally misted the entire ignition system while the > engine was running. No effect, the engine didn't miss a beat. > > Now I'm pretty stumped. The only guidence left from GM bulletin 99066G > is > that the fuel filler pipe may need replacement because California gas eats > it and the melted plastic > goes through the system.... Seems farfetched to me, but I have a new pipe > on order. > > I have hooked up a pressure gauge to the injection rail. Am seeing the > following readings: > > * Engine not running, turn on the ignition: 61PSI > * Turn the ignition off, wait 10 minutes: 45PSI > * Engine idling: 54 PSI > * Stomp on the gas, running full blast up the hill: 58PSI. > > Anybody have a clue? > > - Jerry "clueless" Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com > ) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3021 **********************************