From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sat Mar 14 10:15:29 2009 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Saturday, March 14 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3023 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 Re: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... Re: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 [db] [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up [db] Re: [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up [db] Re: [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:27:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 do you still have that brochure? could you scan it as either JPG or PDF and send me a copy? would be very interesting to see the price list as well. I remember how the German models even in the '70's and '80's were much less featured as their American counterparts... I had a '71 BMW 2500, the US version was the Bavarian... mine had manual everything and a 2.5L I-6... the Bavarian was loaded and had a 3.0L. I also noticed a lot of simple models of Mercedes and BMWs in Germany, actually it was like they were just plain jane Fords and Chevys... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Andreas Kreft wrote: # On Freedag 13 Mdrz 2009, Carballo, Rico A. hat schrieven: # # > This is a Euro model so it doesn't come with much creature comforts. # > Power windows for the front, window cranks for the rear! I don't believe # > this -- is this the way they really came? # # Oh, no. They came without power front windows, of course! Most Euro W124s # are totally devoid of anything even remotely luxurious. # # You want a tach? That's about 600 quid for a gasser. Front power windows? # More than 1000 quid. Central locking? Just about 500. Manual air # conditioning? You crazy? 3500 Deutsche Mark, bitte. Sunroof? Heated # leather seats? Outside temperature gauge? Front armrest? Airbags? You get # the point. # # The biggest joke was the fifth gear option for manual gearboxes. Utterly # neccessary in anything north of a 200D. It cost 900 bucks! Remember, these # were 80s D-Marks - it'd be akin to charging the same amount in Euros # today, and then some, probably. # # I just pulled out my 1989 W124 brochure that I snatched from the dealer # when our 230TE was delivered. It proudly tells you about one astonishingly # generous standard feature - the power adjustable right exterior mirror. # Because, as Merc's marketing geniuses discovered, it's hard to reach over # to the right. But it's a different story with the left one. No power # adjustment available. Straight quote: "Denn den Linken koennen Sie genauso # gut von Hand verstellen." - "Because you can perfectly adjust the left one # by hand." # # Imagine a premium vehicle manufacturer telling you today that you old # lazy-ass can just as well use your hands on something that mundane, for # pete's sake! Customers would laugh you out of the country, but that was # just the way Mercedes acted back then. # # The USA-destined Mercs were fully loaded because MB clearly is a luxury # brand in your market, with demanding customers who expect power-everything # even in cheaper cars. On the other hand, Germans were never accustomed to # gizmos in their cars until the Japanese showed up and put pressure on VW, # Opel and the likes. And most Mercs short of an S-class, especially the # E-class cars, were mostly regarded as a solid workhorse. No need for power # rear windows on a taxicab - which are still today, in eight out of ten # cases, new E classes. # # Thankfully the market forced MB to completely change its view on standard # equipment in the late 90s. # # Have fun with your Euro-loaded 300D :-) # -- # If you live to the age of a hundred you have it made because very few # people die past the age of a hundred. # -- George Burns # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:29:33 +0100 From: Andreas Kreft Subject: Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 On Freedag 13 Mdrz 2009, john hat schrieven: > do you still have that brochure? could you scan it as either > JPG or PDF and send me a copy? would be very interesting to > see the price list as well. Yep, I still have the brochure, but no scanner. My 30 buck digicam would be a bit too challenged to take appropriate pictures of it. But I'll try to scan it when Uni starts again in April. The price list has always been a separate item here, but I'll try to find one on ebay - makes some sense to complete the 'collection' :) Have a nice weekend! Andreas - -- And in the heartbreak years that lie ahead, Be true to yourself and the Grateful Dead. -- Joan Baez ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:44:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 thanx! john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Andreas Kreft wrote: # On Freedag 13 Mdrz 2009, john hat schrieven: # # > do you still have that brochure? could you scan it as either # > JPG or PDF and send me a copy? would be very interesting to # > see the price list as well. # # Yep, I still have the brochure, but no scanner. My 30 buck digicam would be # a bit too challenged to take appropriate pictures of it. # # But I'll try to scan it when Uni starts again in April. # # The price list has always been a separate item here, but I'll try to find # one on ebay - makes some sense to complete the 'collection' :) # # Have a nice weekend! # Andreas # -- # And in the heartbreak years that lie ahead, # Be true to yourself and the Grateful Dead. # -- Joan Baez # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Hoffman Subject: Re: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... Hmmm... John wearing latex gloves and holding a saw-z-all... Interesting photo to say the least... ;) Jim - --- On Fri, 3/13/09, diesel john wrote: > From: diesel john > Subject: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... > To: > Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 2:10 AM > changed the fuel filters on the Nissan Diesel, easily > primed... has a plunger! > a friend came over and verified that the parking brake > cables are hanging, > taking it back to the shop this weekend... > > rerouted the exhaust, put a hunk of steel across the back > of the frame and > made some small steps... took the tug up the hill on a road > test... brought > the GPS... > at 30 mph indicated the GPS says we were doing 44 mph > at 40 mph indicated the GPS says we were doing 57 mph > (there was construction on the highway so I couldn't > try faster speeds...) > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/2009_Mar_12_rear-step-bumper/ > > had snow for a few days: > http://fotomeister.us/fotos/2009/03-Mar-10-11-SNOW/ > > birds and a coyote catching something in the field this > morning: > http://fotomeister.us/fotos/2009/03-Mar-12-coyote-birds-tug/ALL.html > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't > rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com > http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... minor surgeries performed in near clean room conditions... anesthesia optional... :) like my hat? :) harbor fright $3.99 special... better than a baseball cap, covers my ears and there isn't one of those little bumps on top to bang against stuff... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jim Hoffman wrote: # Hmmm... John wearing latex gloves and holding a saw-z-all... # # Interesting photo to say the least... # # ;) # # Jim # # --- On Fri, 3/13/09, diesel john wrote: # # > From: diesel john # > Subject: [db] got the tug back on the road, and other pictures... # > To: # > Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 2:10 AM # > changed the fuel filters on the Nissan Diesel, easily # > primed... has a plunger! # > a friend came over and verified that the parking brake # > cables are hanging, # > taking it back to the shop this weekend... # > # > rerouted the exhaust, put a hunk of steel across the back # > of the frame and # > made some small steps... took the tug up the hill on a road # > test... brought # > the GPS... # > at 30 mph indicated the GPS says we were doing 44 mph # > at 40 mph indicated the GPS says we were doing 57 mph # > (there was construction on the highway so I couldn't # > try faster speeds...) # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/2009_Mar_12_rear-step-bumper/ # > # > had snow for a few days: # > http://fotomeister.us/fotos/2009/03-Mar-10-11-SNOW/ # > # > birds and a coyote catching something in the field this # > morning: # > http://fotomeister.us/fotos/2009/03-Mar-12-coyote-birds-tug/ALL.html # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't # > rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com # > http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:26:06 +0100 From: Andreas Kreft Subject: Re: [db] Contemplating an 87 300D W124 On Freedag 13 Mdrz 2009, john hat schrieven: > thanx! > john No scanning necessary. Behold the Internet! Choose whichever brochure you want: http://www.w124-clubdt.de/index.php?id=19 Price lists available here: http://www.mobilverzeichnis.de/mercedes_preislisten_w124.htm Seems that I was wrong. The air condition was 4,047.00 Deutsche Mark from 1986 to 1991. From then, it ran 4.457,40 DM. :-) - -- teamwork, n.: Having someone to blame. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:31:43 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: [db] [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/AXLES_ENGINE_INFO/ENGINE_ANALYSIS/ # so this is saying that ignoring wind resistance, you would hit redline # somewhere 85-90, but it predicts topping out (mostly due to wind # resistance) somewhere around 75 (with a 10 mph headwind, so somewhere # above that with no headwind). # # you will probably do better than this as you are smaller than the scout # (the aerodynamic calculation is done on the drag of a 5'x5' flat plate, I # read somewhere that that would approximate the drag of a scout and used # it, it seems close enough) # # you've said that you had the truck up to 72 or so, so this looks like it's # in the ballpark # # in second you will hit redline (or more precisely the engine govenor) just # above 60, and in first about 35 # # I will be very interested to hear how close these predictions come to the # real world (even better if we can figure out why they are wrong and # correct the tool) # # you clipped off the gear ratio, tire size, and gear efficiancy values. the # tire size and gear ratio do appear in some of the graphs. I assume that # you left the gear efficiancy at the default 80% value # David Lang yes. I left the gear efficiency at 80%, head wind at 10mph. We encountered heavy traffic on the freeways at lunchtime but hit around 74 mph without too much trouble. Given more freeway I'm sure 80 could have been reached. The engine wasn't screaming like it was at 45mph with the 4.88s. :) The tires are 235/75r15s, or about 28.88" OD. 3.31 gears. I think your calculator was quite realistic... Thinking about my initial calculations, 3.54s would work better, but I should run them through your calculator to see how much of a difference that would have made, other than the $1200 for parts and labor. ;) (unless of course I could find a complete Grand Wagoneer for less. Overall the project is going fairly well... unfortunately I'm buried in this project right now cost-wise... it's amazing how fast things add up, especially when you take a short cut and use a shop. Tomorrow I hope to get some fenders fabricated and install my tailgate setup. Need to get some decent rear shocks as well at some point... have some wiring to do and a lot of little details that all take time. I should have all day to work on the tug, but at some point should go over and help a friend with his project... but need those fenders before I venture out on wet roads or I won't be able to see anything in my mirrors and will likely encounter one of the areas finest. :) We can get away with no bumpers here, but don't let your tires stick outside your fenders, they'll clip your wings really quick... and rightly so, driving down the road with rooster tails is not only disruptive, it's dangerous... We don't get harrassed over nonsensical safety issues like back east, but they are serious about real issues... For comfort (and my back) I need to get those rear shocks swapped out and install some better seats or this thing and I will be forced to take a medical leave of absence from each other. :) Oh yeah, have to bring the tug back to olympic to have the find out why the parking brake cables don't release... shoot... going to be a busy day tomorrow... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: [db] Re: [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up # looking at the calculator I think you are better off as you are. with the # 3.54 gears you wouldn't gain very much power, but you would run out of # engine speed sooner. 2nd gear would top out ~5mph slower. top speed shows # about the same, the 3.54 gears would make you top out a bit sooner, but if # you have a significant headwind you run out of power with the 3.31 gears # at about the same speed. it's close enough that which gives you the best # top speed changes if you change the headwind from 10 mph to 0 (with the # 3.31 gears winning with less wind) # # David Lang thanx for the eval at 3.54... good thing went with 3.31s then. as far as the front area, 5x5 frontal area is about right for the CJ-10A as well as the scout, both rigs have about the same dimensions. results with 3.3L/tf727/3.31 gears and 235s (28.8"): http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/AXLES_ENGINE_INFO/ENGINE_ANALYSIS/ Does your calculator have a 6.2L Diesel? http://scout.lang.hm/scout/nph-performance6.cgi How about a Mercedes 2.5 or 3.0L non-turbo and Turbo? Is it hard to add them to the page? Are you a mechanical engineer by day? My '91 300D with a 2.5L TD has great economy and performance... the car weighs about 3,800lbs give or take... thinking that an '87 3.0L TD out of a 124 series might work in my J10... I'm trying to decide what Diesel to put in my '83 J10 stepside... long term project, the tug is very cool, but my J10 is a superb classic and rides a lot better. The 3.3L Nissan Diesel is well respected and adequate in the tug, but my J10 will need more giddyup... :) Can't do gas, that's just wrong. ;) although it's being reassembled with a stock 4.2/t-5/np208 and I'll happily drive it that way again... not eager to start another project right away... learned a few valuable lessons from the Omega project... 1) don't use novak engine mounts, those tiny donuts aren't close to the GM style for vibration control, and 2) when you have the drivetrain out, soundproof underneath. :) ref: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ heading down to olympic for a pair of TJ fender flares, can't drive the tug until I get some kind of fenders unless I want to take a shower and get a ticket... :) also need some better shocks... I'm thinking I may pull one or two leafs out of the spring pack, the ride is a bit harsh without as much weight in the back... since it's raining out I may stay cooped up in my carport and gut the cab and do some rewiring today as well. my back is sore today... :) I recall going through this with Omega... had to put softer springs and better shocks on, then it rode as it should. I though the '89 springs from the GW would be soft enough, but they're still a bit harsh... weight watchers really had a successful plan for the tug... a bit too much, the bones are rattling... :) it's a lovely day in the PNW to work on a Jeep... inside... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: [db] Re: [CJ-10List] performance calculator back up I've got some engine info, not sure if it'll be enough: http://wagoneers.com/DIESELS/engines-comparison-October-2008.txt http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/engine-specs.html http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/engine-chassis-info.txt http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/GM-6.5-Diesel-specs.pdf http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/FSJ-engines-ALL/Engines-FSJ.html identify what you need and I could get the required input from others... thanx, john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # # > thanx for the eval at 3.54... good thing went with 3.31s then. # > as far as the front area, 5x5 frontal area is about right for the CJ-10A # > as well as the scout, both rigs have about the same dimensions. # # actually, the scout II is noticably larger than the Jeeps (and less # streamlined). # # > results with 3.3L/tf727/3.31 gears and 235s (28.8"): # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/AXLES_ENGINE_INFO/ENGINE_ANALYSIS/ # > # > Does your calculator have a 6.2L Diesel? # > http://scout.lang.hm/scout/nph-performance6.cgi # # yes, both with and without a turbo # # > How about a Mercedes 2.5 or 3.0L non-turbo and Turbo? # # not yet # # > Is it hard to add them to the page? # # it's very easy to add any engine to the page. I just need to get enough # rpm/torque points to create a graph. If the data is from a chassis dyno I # can use it (you just set gear efficiancy to 1.0 since the readings already # account for the gear losses), but specs on the engine itself are ideal. # # > Are you a mechanical engineer by day? # # no, I do computer security nowdays. I initially trained as a programmer. # # > My '91 300D with a 2.5L TD has great economy and performance... the car # > weighs about 3,800lbs give or take... thinking that an '87 3.0L TD out of # > a 124 series might work in my J10... # > # > I'm trying to decide what Diesel to put in my '83 J10 stepside... long term # > project, the tug is very cool, but my J10 is a superb classic and rides a lot # > better. The 3.3L Nissan Diesel is well respected and adequate in the tug, # > but my J10 will need more giddyup... :) # # this is exactly the type of 'what if' type of thing I designed the # calculator to try and help answer. # # I would love to add a bunch of diesel engines to it. # # David Lang # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3023 **********************************