From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Sun Jan 10 10:02:22 2010 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Sunday, January 10 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3216 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 10:07:55 -0500 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel The motor is probably a gem. But everything else about the W210's was awful. Here's a list of the stuff that's gone wrong for me on my '99 E320T gasser: - - Sensor failures: crank position, oxygen, air mass - - Catalytic converter failures, Mercedes weaseled out of the warranty. Insult to injury: the manifold nuts were so rusted up, the manifold needed threaded inserts. I had to have the dealer do these, because they have some magic trick for installing them without lifting the motor. - - Wiring harness: front fog light harnesses tend to rot out. A friend of mine had his dashborad harness spontaneously combust - - Rear differential failed (4 matic). - - Radio sucks. This is partly due to poor speaker placement, partly due to the electronic antenna - - Rapid brake wear - - Rapid tire wear - - Rust, even for the salty northeast, a lot of rust - - Cloudy headlight lenses, apparently chronic with this model - - Mysterious freon leak. It will be fine for a long time, then it will all be gone without a trace - - Alternator - - Weird transmission hunting, fixed by a software upgrade (does software break?) - - Broken wheel bolts. If you get this car, switch to the older 124 wheel bolts. Immediately. Not as pretty, but I've had to drill out 8 of 20 of the originals. - - "Bulb failure" indicator on most of the time. - - If the former owner has used anything but synthetic, or has played with extending the oil changes after the change oil indication is lit, the engine may be sludged up. There was a successful class action suit against Mercedes because for a few years, they forgot to mention that the car required synthetic. - - I've had a tie rod failure or two, but this actually seems better than the earlier cars. - - Window regulator failure is chronic with this model - - Automatic climate controls are wonky. Don't ask for a better explanation, it would take too long. Make sure you replace the cabin filters regularly - - Starter failure. Replacing the starter was something only the dealer would attempt - - Diagnostic software is VERY expensive. I'd have to spend more on the software than I spend to keep the 124 on the road for a year. I've never had an engine problem, so it may be that this list would compare well with an E300D. Remember that I've owned this from new. Not abused, it's barely used. It's a beautiful car. It's a pleasant drive, if not as crisp as the older cars. But it's been a heartbreaker. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel great minds think alike.... my fisrt call monday will be to phil smart... :) I will learn a lot by driving it. will check it out today possibily. pictures to follow ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # Go ask the mechanics at the dealership what kind of problems they've # seen with that model. That's how we learned to avoid the "liftback" # C230 coupe/hatchback that Brooke was eyeing a few years back when we # thought her Celica was on life support. # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT # (ours) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] # # # On Sun Jan 10, 2010, John Meister wrote: # > # > it's beginning to look that way. ;) # > # > I searched on line for comments... the gas models were soundly bad mouthed, # > but the Diesel comments were far less negative... think I found two or three # > that griped about the electrics... but it was hard to tell as they didn't # > list the year or the model on the comments... not very accurate, scientific # > or useful... people generally aren't very technically saavy to begin with # > and then when you remove critical data like year, model, region, options # > and such it really doesn't do much good. # > # > from what I can tell the engine/trans should be ok... I will fear the climate # > control system... but not so much. :) # > # > probably going over to look at it and test drive it tomorrow... have had # > shadowfax for what? five, six years now? still doing very well... there # > are a couple nice features on the newer one... mainly the sunroof and interior # > lighting and the seats... we'll see how the test drive goes. # > # > john # > # > # > On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # > # > # I'm here. But I don't know anything about that model, other than # > # that I really like its styling (and did when it first came out). # > # You can be the guinea pig for it so I know whether to consider a # > # similar model in years to come. :) # > # # > # -bkc # > # Lynnwood, WA # > # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # > # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT # > # (ours) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] # > # # > # # > # On Sun Jan 10, 2010, John Meister wrote: # > # > # > # > anybody out there? :) # > # > # > # > ok, so it's like 3am on the east coast... :) # > # > # > # > john # > # > # > # > # > # > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010, john wrote: # > # > # > # > # looks like the n/a 3.0L Diesel used in the '97 was used in the last of the 124s... # > # > # the earlier I-6 was a different model. What's funny is all of my reference material # > # > # only goes up to about '95... so I'm flying blind here and counting on the collective... # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # Model Year Chassis # Engine # # > # > # E300D 1995 124.13 606.91 # > # > # E300D 1996-97 210.02 606.91 # > # > # # > # > # 300D Turbo 1987 124.13 603.96 # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # Any alarm bells going off at this point? Kevin? Mike? Richard? # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # IS THERE ANY REASON TO WORRY ABOUT THE ENGINE OR TRANS ON A 1997 E300 Diesel? # > # > # # > # > # this thing does come with dual zone climate control... that's probably the only # > # > # high risk thing I can find on this thing... # > # > # # > # > # What brings this all on is... # > # > # my wife just saw the pictures of this '97 on CL and like me likes it. # > # > # # > # > # We haven't driven it yet... 154,000 miles, one previous WA state # > # > # owner who was a real estate agent... the car is spotless under the # > # > # hood and there are no real signs of any aggressive detailing... no # > # > # indications of degreaser or even a hose out... I can see original # > # > # road dust under the hood and in the door jambs. # > # > # # > # > # Absolutely no rust anywhere, but that goes without saying. I LOVE THE PNW!!! # > # > # # > # > # Here's pictures of the '97: # > # > # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/E300-97/ # > # > # # > # > # Vehicle Options # > # > # Home Link, Auto Climate Control, Dual Zone Climate Control, Tachometer, Leather/Leatherette, Cup Holder, Fog/Driving Lamps, Rear Defroster, Tinted Glass, Sunroof, Anti-lock Brakes, Alloy Wheels, Power Driver's Seat, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, Power Passenger Seat, Power Mirrors, Center Armrest, Rear Shoulder Harness, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel, Satellite Radio, Interior Wood Trim, Console, CD Player, Tilt Steering Wheel, AM/FM Radio, Air Conditioning, Cruise Control, # > # > # Diesel, Loaded mint condition! Will not find one nicer! These Mercedes Diesels are known to go 300k + easy! And this only has 164k no dissapointments 35+ mpg!AMG wheels very very nice # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # I checked book value on Shadowfax, he's worth around $4k at this point. # > # > # Saw another 300D 2.5 on CL for about that much. I've also got the '89 Cherokee Limited # > # > # and the '00 WJ to sell... so we should be fine... if we like it I don't see any # > # > # reason why I shouldn't go to the credit union on Monday... unless the collective # > # > # has good reasons for us to avoid this one... # > # > # # > # > # http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/PricingReport/1991_Mercedes-Benz_300D_11041_Retail_Excellent.aspx?SelectionHistory=11041|32230|98208|0|0|&Mileage=260000&PriceTypePath=Retail # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # What's interesting to note is that the mpg rating on the '97 says 23/30, # > # > # but others have reported higher... then I looked at KBB and it says mine # > # > # is rated at 23/30 and I get 30 in town and as much as 39 on the freeway. # > # > # # > # > # Noticed that the '97 has the same style high pressure pump that my 2.5 does. # > # > # # > # > # I didn't see any elaborate sensors going to the engine... # > # > # # > # > # Wasn't really looking for a new Diesel Benz, ours is doing quite well. I mean # > # > # one glow plug in what? 4 years? that's a high maintenance vehicle that I better # > # > # get rid of. ;) My benz is 19 years old... the heated seats still work.. # > # > # # > # > # The only issues with the car are the a/c systems leaks down in a few weeks to # > # > # a month... easily charged back up with a can of r134. The traction control computer # > # > # departed years ago, but all the better it only caused problems when it engaged anyway. # > # > # Otherwise it's doing splendidly... I think we should keep it and get the newer one... # > # > # but my wife keeps reeling me back into reality. :) I'd rather get rid of the WJ # > # > # and have two Benz and keep an old Jeep around for hauling WVO and the trailer and # > # > # for those very rare snow days. # > # > # # > # > # keep the popcorn fresh... going to look at that Toyota Diesel tomorrow too... # > # > # even though Curtis claims he's going to be able to get Superdawg back together. :) # > # > # # > # > # I can see us with SuperDawg, the '97 Benz and the '99 WJ... doesn't seem outlandish # > # > # or anything... I wouldn't mind keeping the white '89 XJ too, taking a liking to it. # > # > # In fact I think the Toyota may be avoided because the XJ will be a better ride. # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # heading out to put the window motor in the '89 XJ now... :) # > # > # # > # > # john # > # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 09:52:59 -0800 From: "Paul Masterson" Subject: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel John, I have been seriously considering an upgrade to the w210, and have asked five or six of my customers who run european shops for their opinions.(I run a parts store) They all agree that there is alot of electronics on the car, but that they are not basket cases by any means. I am planning to get one, probably an E320, although I figured it will only be a couple hundred dollars a year in fuel cost to get an 8cyl. Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Caruthers" To: Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel > Go ask the mechanics at the dealership what kind of problems they've > seen with that model. That's how we learned to avoid the "liftback" > C230 coupe/hatchback that Brooke was eyeing a few years back when we > thought her Celica was on life support. > > -bkc > Lynnwood, WA > (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] > (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT > (ours) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] > > > On Sun Jan 10, 2010, John Meister wrote: >> >> it's beginning to look that way. ;) >> >> I searched on line for comments... the gas models were soundly bad >> mouthed, >> but the Diesel comments were far less negative... think I found two or >> three >> that griped about the electrics... but it was hard to tell as they >> didn't >> list the year or the model on the comments... not very accurate, >> scientific >> or useful... people generally aren't very technically saavy to begin with >> and then when you remove critical data like year, model, region, options >> and such it really doesn't do much good. >> >> from what I can tell the engine/trans should be ok... I will fear the >> climate >> control system... but not so much. :) >> >> probably going over to look at it and test drive it tomorrow... have had >> shadowfax for what? five, six years now? still doing very well... there >> are a couple nice features on the newer one... mainly the sunroof and >> interior >> lighting and the seats... we'll see how the test drive goes. >> >> john >> >> >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >> >> # I'm here. But I don't know anything about that model, other than >> # that I really like its styling (and did when it first came out). >> # You can be the guinea pig for it so I know whether to consider a >> # similar model in years to come. :) >> # >> # -bkc >> # Lynnwood, WA >> # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] >> # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT >> # (ours) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] >> # >> # >> # On Sun Jan 10, 2010, John Meister wrote: >> # > >> # > anybody out there? :) >> # > >> # > ok, so it's like 3am on the east coast... :) >> # > >> # > john >> # > >> # > >> # > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010, john wrote: >> # > >> # > # looks like the n/a 3.0L Diesel used in the '97 was used in the last >> of the 124s... >> # > # the earlier I-6 was a different model. What's funny is all of my >> reference material >> # > # only goes up to about '95... so I'm flying blind here and counting >> on the collective... >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # Model Year Chassis # Engine # >> # > # E300D 1995 124.13 606.91 >> # > # E300D 1996-97 210.02 606.91 >> # > # >> # > # 300D Turbo 1987 124.13 603.96 >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # Any alarm bells going off at this point? Kevin? Mike? Richard? >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # IS THERE ANY REASON TO WORRY ABOUT THE ENGINE OR TRANS ON A 1997 >> E300 Diesel? >> # > # >> # > # this thing does come with dual zone climate control... that's >> probably the only >> # > # high risk thing I can find on this thing... >> # > # >> # > # What brings this all on is... >> # > # my wife just saw the pictures of this '97 on CL and like me likes >> it. >> # > # >> # > # We haven't driven it yet... 154,000 miles, one previous WA state >> # > # owner who was a real estate agent... the car is spotless under the >> # > # hood and there are no real signs of any aggressive detailing... no >> # > # indications of degreaser or even a hose out... I can see original >> # > # road dust under the hood and in the door jambs. >> # > # >> # > # Absolutely no rust anywhere, but that goes without saying. I LOVE >> THE PNW!!! >> # > # >> # > # Here's pictures of the '97: >> # > # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/E300-97/ >> # > # >> # > # Vehicle Options >> # > # Home Link, Auto Climate Control, Dual Zone Climate Control, >> Tachometer, Leather/Leatherette, Cup Holder, Fog/Driving Lamps, Rear >> Defroster, Tinted Glass, Sunroof, Anti-lock Brakes, Alloy Wheels, Power >> Driver's Seat, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, Power Passenger Seat, >> Power Mirrors, Center Armrest, Rear Shoulder Harness, Leather Wrapped >> Steering Wheel, Satellite Radio, Interior Wood Trim, Console, CD Player, >> Tilt Steering Wheel, AM/FM Radio, Air Conditioning, Cruise Control, >> # > # Diesel, Loaded mint condition! Will not find one nicer! These >> Mercedes Diesels are known to go 300k + easy! And this only has 164k no >> dissapointments 35+ mpg!AMG wheels very very nice >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # I checked book value on Shadowfax, he's worth around $4k at this >> point. >> # > # Saw another 300D 2.5 on CL for about that much. I've also got the >> '89 Cherokee Limited >> # > # and the '00 WJ to sell... so we should be fine... if we like it I >> don't see any >> # > # reason why I shouldn't go to the credit union on Monday... unless >> the collective >> # > # has good reasons for us to avoid this one... >> # > # >> # > # >> http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/PricingReport/1991_Mercedes-Benz_300D_11041_Retail_Excellent.aspx?SelectionHistory=11041|32230|98208|0|0|&Mileage=260000&PriceTypePath=Retail >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # What's interesting to note is that the mpg rating on the '97 says >> 23/30, >> # > # but others have reported higher... then I looked at KBB and it says >> mine >> # > # is rated at 23/30 and I get 30 in town and as much as 39 on the >> freeway. >> # > # >> # > # Noticed that the '97 has the same style high pressure pump that my >> 2.5 does. >> # > # >> # > # I didn't see any elaborate sensors going to the engine... >> # > # >> # > # Wasn't really looking for a new Diesel Benz, ours is doing quite >> well. I mean >> # > # one glow plug in what? 4 years? that's a high maintenance vehicle >> that I better >> # > # get rid of. ;) My benz is 19 years old... the heated seats still >> work.. >> # > # >> # > # The only issues with the car are the a/c systems leaks down in a >> few weeks to >> # > # a month... easily charged back up with a can of r134. The traction >> control computer >> # > # departed years ago, but all the better it only caused problems when >> it engaged anyway. >> # > # Otherwise it's doing splendidly... I think we should keep it and >> get the newer one... >> # > # but my wife keeps reeling me back into reality. :) I'd rather get >> rid of the WJ >> # > # and have two Benz and keep an old Jeep around for hauling WVO and >> the trailer and >> # > # for those very rare snow days. >> # > # >> # > # keep the popcorn fresh... going to look at that Toyota Diesel >> tomorrow too... >> # > # even though Curtis claims he's going to be able to get Superdawg >> back together. :) >> # > # >> # > # I can see us with SuperDawg, the '97 Benz and the '99 WJ... doesn't >> seem outlandish >> # > # or anything... I wouldn't mind keeping the white '89 XJ too, >> taking a liking to it. >> # > # In fact I think the Toyota may be avoided because the XJ will be a >> better ride. >> # > # >> # > # >> # > # heading out to put the window motor in the '89 XJ now... :) >> # > # >> # > # john >> # > # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 10:02:13 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '97 E300 Diesel Mike, looking through your list and trying to identify the Diesel related issues and the basic car issues. I think the engine will be fine, however there is a 98 e300 for sale for $1500 here, bad trans. so, going over your list I noticed on this car: cloudy/foggy headlamps aftermarket stereo w/ benz cd changer still in amg rims, not stock so basically the issues that could remain with this car are the headlight covers, the wonderful wonky weather world on the dash and the transmission... and rear end and brakes. I wonder if a test drive will reveal the lack of love that Fred felt too. sounds like I should check out that 98 with 300k on it and the bad trans. what other trans would fit? thanx again Mike, very helful. I will look but with the shields at maximum. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, Mike Frank wrote: # The motor is probably a gem. But everything else # about the W210's was awful. Here's a list of the # stuff that's gone wrong for me on my '99 E320T # gasser: # # - Sensor failures: crank position, oxygen, air # mass # - Catalytic converter failures, Mercedes weaseled # out of the warranty. Insult to injury: the # manifold nuts were so rusted up, the manifold # needed threaded inserts. I had to have the dealer # do these, because they have some magic trick for # installing them without lifting the motor. # - Wiring harness: front fog light harnesses tend # to rot out. A friend of mine had his dashborad # harness spontaneously combust # - Rear differential failed (4 matic). # - Radio sucks. This is partly due to poor speaker # placement, partly due to the electronic antenna # - Rapid brake wear # - Rapid tire wear # - Rust, even for the salty northeast, a lot of # rust # - Cloudy headlight lenses, apparently chronic with # this model # - Mysterious freon leak. It will be fine for a # long time, then it will all be gone without a # trace # - Alternator # - Weird transmission hunting, fixed by a software # upgrade (does software break?) # - Broken wheel bolts. If you get this car, switch # to the older 124 wheel bolts. Immediately. Not as # pretty, but I've had to drill out 8 of 20 of the # originals. # - "Bulb failure" indicator on most of the time. # - If the former owner has used anything but # synthetic, or has played with extending the oil # changes after the change oil indication is lit, # the engine may be sludged up. There was a # successful class action suit against Mercedes # because for a few years, they forgot to mention # that the car required synthetic. # - I've had a tie rod failure or two, but this # actually seems better than the earlier cars. # - Window regulator failure is chronic with this # model # - Automatic climate controls are wonky. Don't ask # for a better explanation, it would take too long. # Make sure you replace the cabin filters regularly # - Starter failure. Replacing the starter was # something only the dealer would attempt # - Diagnostic software is VERY expensive. I'd have # to spend more on the software than I spend to keep # the 124 on the road for a year. # # I've never had an engine problem, so it may be # that this list would compare well with an E300D. # # Remember that I've owned this from new. Not # abused, it's barely used. It's a beautiful car. # It's a pleasant drive, if not as crisp as the # older cars. But it's been a heartbreaker. # # Mike Frank # # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3216 **********************************