From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Mon Jan 18 14:34:05 2010 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, January 18 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3229 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] OT: Gasser Question. RE: [db] OT: Gasser Question. Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question. Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question.- now ABS Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question. Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question.- now ABS Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: [db] OT: Gasser Question. you might want to clean all the ground contacts throughout the system as well... I know that oxidation and corrosion is not a big problem in your area, but there is still some created because of the dissimilar metals. I've cleaned up a lot of goofy problems by just going through all the grounds... especially on GMs... had a lot of electrical issues with this '89 cherokee limited too... still finding issues... things not bolted down, corrosion on contacts and so on... was able to get the brakes working by pulling one fuse to the abs... amazing difference... best brakes I've ever had on an XJ Jeep... stupid overbearing ABS systems... I know the theoretical benefits of ABS, seen a very serious accident avoided by a driver who would have likely been killed had the car not had ABS... she had to make a hard left turn at highway speed to clear a wall and had the brakes on hard... she would have slid right into the wall and not been able to steer around it... I was in an Olds Diesel with hydraboost brakes, I got on the brakes so hard I locked up all four tires and killed the Diesel engine... the gal that caused the accident vectored off onto the right shoulder, she was trying to make an abrupt left turn from the right lane... right into the car ahead of me... at 60 mph... so ABS can be a good thing... ...but I still hate it... it frightens me when it kicks in... the ONLY ABS system I've seen that I could tolerate was the one on my '94 K1500 Diesel Blazer... it didn't vibrate the pedal, didn't engage at low speeds and was well mannered... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Potter, Tom E wrote: # Clean the ECU (and all other accessible) contacts with Deoxit. # # Thomas E. Potter # Technical Specialist II # Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Company, LLC # Office: (713) 215-2877 # Cell: (832) 794-0536 # Fax: (713) 215-2551 # E-mail: tom.e.potter@williams.com # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz@digest.net] # On Behalf Of Jerry Kaidor # Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:30 PM # To: diesel-benz@digest.net # Subject: [db] OT: Gasser Question. # # OK, # It's not a Benz, it's not a diesel, but I'm at my wits end with this # thing: # # ----------- # # # My 99 Astro has been giving a few engine problems, which may or may # not have the same cause. # # 1. A P0155 code. This means "Bad Oxygen sensor heater". It is # unaffected by replacing the oxygen sensor. # # 2. Stumbling at speed. Clears out on long trips. I suspected bad # injectors, and replaced them all with the # improved "MFI" system. No effect. I also replaced the intake manifold # gasket, which is known to be eaten by "Dex-Cool". No effect. I also # replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, and ignition # coil. # # 3. No-start. Happens mostly on cold wet days, especially when the car # has been sitting without for multiple days. You crank it, the engine # coughs and sputters for up to 30 seconds, then stops. After a while, it # starts up and runs normally except for #1 and #2. During the # "no-start" # condition, fuel pressure is normal at 60PSI. # # 4. On our last trip, the car lost power on the freeway, and soon would # not go any faster than # 45MPH. We had to call for a 50-mile tow to get it home. Luckily we # have # the deluxe AAA! # Once home, I stuck on a sc and read the following codes: # P0155 ( as usual ) # P0300 ( misfires ) # P0101 ( a MAF error ) # # The MAF output looked pretty normal on my oscilloscope, although I # did # not measure its frequency. # # # I drove the car around the neighborhood, it would go no # faster than 10MPH up hill! This was with a fuel pressure gauge # connected, # the # reading was a solid 60PSI. ( When the car is operating normally, I # see # 60PSI while # starting, 55 PSI running ). # # I just invested in a better OBDII scan tool, one that can read the # PIDs. It came in yesterday, so I just went out to the car to read what # I could read. # # Unfortunately, the car won't start. Readings are as follows: # # MAF ( pounds per minute ) - about 0.5, jumping mostly between 0.2 and # 0.5, # with a few spikes as high as 1.3. As far as I can tell, this is # reasonably normal for an engine that's just being cranked. # # TPS - zero. When I hit the throttle, it smoothly ramps up to 100. # Actually, I just replaced this one. # # Intake Temperature ( F ) - flat as a board at 64.4. OK, it's a cool # day. # # Intake Manifold Pressure( PSI ) - varies between 14.6 and 13.6. # Actually, # just a few spikes down to 13.6, mostly it's # 14.0 to 14.6. Hmm, doesn't sound like much vacuum # to me. Maybe I can stick a vacuum gauge on this thing. I seem to # remember seeing at least 10 inches of mercury on "normal" cars while # cranking. Maybe my memory is bad... Vacuum leak? Bad PCV valve? # # Engine Load ( % ) 0 to 7 # # Short term fuel trim bank1(%) flat lined at zero # ( actually, all the fuel trims are zero ) # # Engine Coolant Temp ( F ) - 53.6 # # Engine RPM - looks like about 150RPM while cranking. # # The fuel pressure is 60PSI, and there IS spark. # # I know that if I keep trying, it will ultimately start and run. But I'd # just as soon troubleshoot the no-start before moving on to the # "no-power" # problem. # # - Jerry # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:33:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: RE: [db] OT: Gasser Question. > Clean the ECU (and all other accessible) contacts with Deoxit. *** Indeed. I'll do that after I inspect and resolder the ECU. I was thinking about this last night. The CPU is working OK, because the ECU is talking OBDII. But there is an intermittant lack of pulses at the fuel injectors. So I will be looking carefully at the fuel injector drivers and whatever state machine drives them. In general, I often find that solder joints crack at or around the hardest-working semiconductors, often larger devices with heat sinks. I can hardly wait to get this thing under my stereo microscope. - Jerry > > Thomas E. Potter > Technical Specialist II > Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Company, LLC > Office: (713) 215-2877 > Cell: (832) 794-0536 > Fax: (713) 215-2551 > E-mail: tom.e.potter@williams.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz@digest.net] > On Behalf Of Jerry Kaidor > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:30 PM > To: diesel-benz@digest.net > Subject: [db] OT: Gasser Question. > > OK, > It's not a Benz, it's not a diesel, but I'm at my wits end with this > thing: > > ----------- > > > My 99 Astro has been giving a few engine problems, which may or may > not have the same cause. > > 1. A P0155 code. This means "Bad Oxygen sensor heater". It is > unaffected by replacing the oxygen sensor. > > 2. Stumbling at speed. Clears out on long trips. I suspected bad > injectors, and replaced them all with the > improved "MFI" system. No effect. I also replaced the intake manifold > gasket, which is known to be eaten by "Dex-Cool". No effect. I also > replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, and ignition > coil. > > 3. No-start. Happens mostly on cold wet days, especially when the car > has been sitting without for multiple days. You crank it, the engine > coughs and sputters for up to 30 seconds, then stops. After a while, it > starts up and runs normally except for #1 and #2. During the > "no-start" > condition, fuel pressure is normal at 60PSI. > > 4. On our last trip, the car lost power on the freeway, and soon would > not go any faster than > 45MPH. We had to call for a 50-mile tow to get it home. Luckily we > have > the deluxe AAA! > Once home, I stuck on a sc and read the following codes: > P0155 ( as usual ) > P0300 ( misfires ) > P0101 ( a MAF error ) > > The MAF output looked pretty normal on my oscilloscope, although I > did > not measure its frequency. > > > I drove the car around the neighborhood, it would go no > faster than 10MPH up hill! This was with a fuel pressure gauge > connected, > the > reading was a solid 60PSI. ( When the car is operating normally, I > see > 60PSI while > starting, 55 PSI running ). > > I just invested in a better OBDII scan tool, one that can read the > PIDs. It came in yesterday, so I just went out to the car to read what > I could read. > > Unfortunately, the car won't start. Readings are as follows: > > MAF ( pounds per minute ) - about 0.5, jumping mostly between 0.2 and > 0.5, > with a few spikes as high as 1.3. As far as I can tell, this is > reasonably normal for an engine that's just being cranked. > > TPS - zero. When I hit the throttle, it smoothly ramps up to 100. > Actually, I just replaced this one. > > Intake Temperature ( F ) - flat as a board at 64.4. OK, it's a cool > day. > > Intake Manifold Pressure( PSI ) - varies between 14.6 and 13.6. > Actually, > just a few spikes down to 13.6, mostly it's > 14.0 to 14.6. Hmm, doesn't sound like much vacuum > to me. Maybe I can stick a vacuum gauge on this thing. I seem to > remember seeing at least 10 inches of mercury on "normal" cars while > cranking. Maybe my memory is bad... Vacuum leak? Bad PCV valve? > > Engine Load ( % ) 0 to 7 > > Short term fuel trim bank1(%) flat lined at zero > ( actually, all the fuel trims are zero ) > > Engine Coolant Temp ( F ) - 53.6 > > Engine RPM - looks like about 150RPM while cranking. > > The fuel pressure is 60PSI, and there IS spark. > > I know that if I keep trying, it will ultimately start and run. But I'd > just as soon troubleshoot the no-start before moving on to the > "no-power" > problem. > > - Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:54:34 -0600 From: Alec Cordova Subject: Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question. On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > I can hardly wait to get this thing under my stereo microscope. And I find myself envious that I don't have a stereo microscope of my own to play with. Good luck with the repair work. Alec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:07:04 +0000 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question.- now ABS Hi John , Don't know about the ABS in the XJ but in past cars I've had with ABS, pulling the fuse for the ABS unit also changed the front/rear bias to a certain degree (I tended to lock up the fronts alot on these cars). I assume the ABS unit controlled this in part. Steve On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 5:52 PM, john wrote: > stupid overbearing ABS systems... I know the theoretical benefits of ABS, > seen a very serious accident avoided by a driver who would have likely been > killed had the car not had ABS... > she had to make a hard left turn at highway speed to clear a wall and had > the brakes > on hard... she would have slid right into the wall and not been able to > steer around it... I was in an Olds Diesel with hydraboost brakes, I > got on the brakes so hard I locked up all four tires and killed the > Diesel engine... the gal that caused the accident vectored off onto > the right shoulder, she was trying to make an abrupt left turn from > the right lane... right into the car ahead of me... at 60 mph... so > ABS can be a good thing... > > ...but I still hate it... it frightens me when it kicks in... the > ONLY ABS system I've seen that I could tolerate was the one on my > '94 K1500 Diesel Blazer... it didn't vibrate the pedal, didn't engage > at low speeds and was well mannered... > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Potter, Tom E wrote: > > # Clean the ECU (and all other accessible) contacts with Deoxit. > # > # Thomas E. Potter > # Technical Specialist II > # Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Company, LLC > # Office: (713) 215-2877 > # Cell: (832) 794-0536 > # Fax: (713) 215-2551 > # E-mail: tom.e.potter@williams.com > # -----Original Message----- > # From: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz@digest.net > ] > # On Behalf Of Jerry Kaidor > # Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:30 PM > # To: diesel-benz@digest.net > # Subject: [db] OT: Gasser Question. > # > # OK, > # It's not a Benz, it's not a diesel, but I'm at my wits end with this > # thing: > # > # ----------- > # > # > # My 99 Astro has been giving a few engine problems, which may or may > # not have the same cause. > # > # 1. A P0155 code. This means "Bad Oxygen sensor heater". It is > # unaffected by replacing the oxygen sensor. > # > # 2. Stumbling at speed. Clears out on long trips. I suspected bad > # injectors, and replaced them all with the > # improved "MFI" system. No effect. I also replaced the intake manifold > # gasket, which is known to be eaten by "Dex-Cool". No effect. I also > # replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, and ignition > # coil. > # > # 3. No-start. Happens mostly on cold wet days, especially when the car > # has been sitting without for multiple days. You crank it, the engine > # coughs and sputters for up to 30 seconds, then stops. After a while, it > # starts up and runs normally except for #1 and #2. During the > # "no-start" > # condition, fuel pressure is normal at 60PSI. > # > # 4. On our last trip, the car lost power on the freeway, and soon would > # not go any faster than > # 45MPH. We had to call for a 50-mile tow to get it home. Luckily we > # have > # the deluxe AAA! > # Once home, I stuck on a sc and read the following codes: > # P0155 ( as usual ) > # P0300 ( misfires ) > # P0101 ( a MAF error ) > # > # The MAF output looked pretty normal on my oscilloscope, although I > # did > # not measure its frequency. > # > # > # I drove the car around the neighborhood, it would go no > # faster than 10MPH up hill! This was with a fuel pressure gauge > # connected, > # the > # reading was a solid 60PSI. ( When the car is operating normally, I > # see > # 60PSI while > # starting, 55 PSI running ). > # > # I just invested in a better OBDII scan tool, one that can read the > # PIDs. It came in yesterday, so I just went out to the car to read what > # I could read. > # > # Unfortunately, the car won't start. Readings are as follows: > # > # MAF ( pounds per minute ) - about 0.5, jumping mostly between 0.2 and > # 0.5, > # with a few spikes as high as 1.3. As far as I can tell, this is > # reasonably normal for an engine that's just being cranked. > # > # TPS - zero. When I hit the throttle, it smoothly ramps up to 100. > # Actually, I just replaced this one. > # > # Intake Temperature ( F ) - flat as a board at 64.4. OK, it's a cool > # day. > # > # Intake Manifold Pressure( PSI ) - varies between 14.6 and 13.6. > # Actually, > # just a few spikes down to 13.6, mostly it's > # 14.0 to 14.6. Hmm, doesn't sound like much vacuum > # to me. Maybe I can stick a vacuum gauge on this thing. I seem to > # remember seeing at least 10 inches of mercury on "normal" cars while > # cranking. Maybe my memory is bad... Vacuum leak? Bad PCV valve? > # > # Engine Load ( % ) 0 to 7 > # > # Short term fuel trim bank1(%) flat lined at zero > # ( actually, all the fuel trims are zero ) > # > # Engine Coolant Temp ( F ) - 53.6 > # > # Engine RPM - looks like about 150RPM while cranking. > # > # The fuel pressure is 60PSI, and there IS spark. > # > # I know that if I keep trying, it will ultimately start and run. But I'd > # just as soon troubleshoot the no-start before moving on to the > # "no-power" > # problem. > # > # - Jerry > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question. you need a triple nerd tag... I used to work on scanning electron microscopes at intel in photolithography...;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Alec Cordova wrote: # On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Jerry Kaidor wrote: # > I can hardly wait to get this thing under my stereo microscope. # # # And I find myself envious that I don't have a stereo microscope of my # own to play with. # # # Good luck with the repair work. # # Alec # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:33:54 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] OT: Gasser Question.- now ABS the early abs used in the jeep was primitive... this is only locking up the front brakes because the boost is more than stock... the rest of the braking action seems balanced and as would any other XJ. the brakes on XJs are pretty lame really... at least prior to '96... one gets used to it... locking up brakes on an XJ is not normal... :) note: XJ Jeep Cherokee... not the british cat version... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Stephen Rigley wrote: # Hi John , # # Don't know about the ABS in the XJ but in past cars I've had with ABS, # pulling the fuse for the ABS unit also changed the front/rear bias to a # certain degree (I tended to lock up the fronts alot on these cars). I assume # the ABS unit controlled this in part. # Steve # # On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 5:52 PM, john wrote: # # > stupid overbearing ABS systems... I know the theoretical benefits of ABS, # > seen a very serious accident avoided by a driver who would have likely been # > killed had the car not had ABS... # > she had to make a hard left turn at highway speed to clear a wall and had # > the brakes # > on hard... she would have slid right into the wall and not been able to # > steer around it... I was in an Olds Diesel with hydraboost brakes, I # > got on the brakes so hard I locked up all four tires and killed the # > Diesel engine... the gal that caused the accident vectored off onto # > the right shoulder, she was trying to make an abrupt left turn from # > the right lane... right into the car ahead of me... at 60 mph... so # > ABS can be a good thing... # > # > ...but I still hate it... it frightens me when it kicks in... the # > ONLY ABS system I've seen that I could tolerate was the one on my # > '94 K1500 Diesel Blazer... it didn't vibrate the pedal, didn't engage # > at low speeds and was well mannered... # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Potter, Tom E wrote: # > # > # Clean the ECU (and all other accessible) contacts with Deoxit. # > # # > # Thomas E. Potter # > # Technical Specialist II # > # Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Company, LLC # > # Office: (713) 215-2877 # > # Cell: (832) 794-0536 # > # Fax: (713) 215-2551 # > # E-mail: tom.e.potter@williams.com # > # -----Original Message----- # > # From: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz@digest.net # > ] # > # On Behalf Of Jerry Kaidor # > # Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:30 PM # > # To: diesel-benz@digest.net # > # Subject: [db] OT: Gasser Question. # > # # > # OK, # > # It's not a Benz, it's not a diesel, but I'm at my wits end with this # > # thing: # > # # > # ----------- # > # # > # # > # My 99 Astro has been giving a few engine problems, which may or may # > # not have the same cause. # > # # > # 1. A P0155 code. This means "Bad Oxygen sensor heater". It is # > # unaffected by replacing the oxygen sensor. # > # # > # 2. Stumbling at speed. Clears out on long trips. I suspected bad # > # injectors, and replaced them all with the # > # improved "MFI" system. No effect. I also replaced the intake manifold # > # gasket, which is known to be eaten by "Dex-Cool". No effect. I also # > # replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, and ignition # > # coil. # > # # > # 3. No-start. Happens mostly on cold wet days, especially when the car # > # has been sitting without for multiple days. You crank it, the engine # > # coughs and sputters for up to 30 seconds, then stops. After a while, it # > # starts up and runs normally except for #1 and #2. During the # > # "no-start" # > # condition, fuel pressure is normal at 60PSI. # > # # > # 4. On our last trip, the car lost power on the freeway, and soon would # > # not go any faster than # > # 45MPH. We had to call for a 50-mile tow to get it home. Luckily we # > # have # > # the deluxe AAA! # > # Once home, I stuck on a sc and read the following codes: # > # P0155 ( as usual ) # > # P0300 ( misfires ) # > # P0101 ( a MAF error ) # > # # > # The MAF output looked pretty normal on my oscilloscope, although I # > # did # > # not measure its frequency. # > # # > # # > # I drove the car around the neighborhood, it would go no # > # faster than 10MPH up hill! This was with a fuel pressure gauge # > # connected, # > # the # > # reading was a solid 60PSI. ( When the car is operating normally, I # > # see # > # 60PSI while # > # starting, 55 PSI running ). # > # # > # I just invested in a better OBDII scan tool, one that can read the # > # PIDs. It came in yesterday, so I just went out to the car to read what # > # I could read. # > # # > # Unfortunately, the car won't start. Readings are as follows: # > # # > # MAF ( pounds per minute ) - about 0.5, jumping mostly between 0.2 and # > # 0.5, # > # with a few spikes as high as 1.3. As far as I can tell, this is # > # reasonably normal for an engine that's just being cranked. # > # # > # TPS - zero. When I hit the throttle, it smoothly ramps up to 100. # > # Actually, I just replaced this one. # > # # > # Intake Temperature ( F ) - flat as a board at 64.4. OK, it's a cool # > # day. # > # # > # Intake Manifold Pressure( PSI ) - varies between 14.6 and 13.6. # > # Actually, # > # just a few spikes down to 13.6, mostly it's # > # 14.0 to 14.6. Hmm, doesn't sound like much vacuum # > # to me. Maybe I can stick a vacuum gauge on this thing. I seem to # > # remember seeing at least 10 inches of mercury on "normal" cars while # > # cranking. Maybe my memory is bad... Vacuum leak? Bad PCV valve? # > # # > # Engine Load ( % ) 0 to 7 # > # # > # Short term fuel trim bank1(%) flat lined at zero # > # ( actually, all the fuel trims are zero ) # > # # > # Engine Coolant Temp ( F ) - 53.6 # > # # > # Engine RPM - looks like about 150RPM while cranking. # > # # > # The fuel pressure is 60PSI, and there IS spark. # > # # > # I know that if I keep trying, it will ultimately start and run. But I'd # > # just as soon troubleshoot the no-start before moving on to the # > # "no-power" # > # problem. # > # # > # - Jerry # > # # > # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3229 **********************************