From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Mon Jan 10 12:20:00 2011 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, January 10 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3371 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Automatic trans 2.1TD [db] Re: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD [db] '86 xj 2.1L TD - used 904 [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... Re: [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... [db] Re: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD [db] car colors [db] Re: fsj: re: programmers Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 23:33:22 +0000 From: dieseljohn@comcast.net Subject: [db] Automatic trans 2.1TD I think the automatic used in the '86 jeep xj behind the 2.1L TD was the 904. Anyone able to verify that info? john at http://wagoneers.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:21:37 -0800 From: john Subject: [db] Re: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD thanx Terry... that confirms it... had another wrench friend in Chicago also confirm it, my books said the same thing... is it the stock jeep bell housing then or did they have an adapter? need to get a flex plate and tc, they should have them at the local trans shop... will call tomorrow. john On 1/9/2011 6:47 PM, T.Halmshaw wrote: > Indeed the Torqueflite 904 was the unit used. > > :) > At 10:33 AM 10/01/2011, you wrote: >> I think the automatic used in the '86 jeep xj behind the 2.1L TD was the 904. >> >> Anyone able to verify that info? >> john at http://wagoneers.com >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 5772 (20110109) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com > > > - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 21:09:12 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] '86 xj 2.1L TD - used 904 the factory shop manual confirms that the Automatic used behind the 2.1L Turbo Diesel is a 904. From reading the R&R process it is likely the same transmission used with the 2.5L and 2.8V6. There is nothing noting any special adapters, there is this NOTE: On Diesel Models remove left motor mount and starter to gain access to the converter drive plate bolts through the starter opening. pg f-8 mr244. sounds like the engine gets in the way of the normal access... the 2.1L TD has an oil pan that dips down, has two drain plugs. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 21:58:58 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... SHOULD I PASS ON THIS PROJECT? http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/ I found this '86 Cherokee 2.1L Turbo Diesel... it has a cracked bell housing to the manual transmission. Supposedly this has a new injection pump and extra parts... I'm thinking of putting the optional automatic (904) in it... if I can source the parts... however, I just got the pictures, cell phone, but good enough to see the body damage on pass side, rear bumper, torn seats (which I'd replace anyway)... but what concerns me more is the hacked up intercooler setup... why??? they had a factory intercooler setup that sat down by the front bumper and was nice and tidy and compact... with a good air filter setup... this looks like something I'd frankenstein into a logging truck... The seller has dropped the price considerably... won't go below a grand because the injection pump rebuild was $700... I found the manual transmission complete for $350... the shop she had it in claimed a new bell housing alone was $800, quoted almost $1600 to fix this... (the starter mount cracked on the bell housing). The automatic used is a 904, but I'm not sure about the bell housing setup, and if I can find a flex plate and torque converter... http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/ This is a Renault 2.1L all aluminum turbo Diesel... and it has a high maintenance rubber band... like every 20k... it will also leak oil like a french fry strainer, meaning o-ring replacements... the electrics are provided by the french version of the prince of darkness, paris-rhone... sometimes by bosch... maybe this will have bosch... but the french and the germans never really got together well, so I'm not sure about the arrangement. I'm confident that for around $1500 I could put this thing on the road with a manual transmission, maybe an automatic... likely spend another $300-$500 fixing the a/c, then another $300-$400 for decent seats... so I'd have $2,000-2,500 into an old Jeep with firestone tires, ratty interior, a bent rear bumper and body damage... but it would be a 4x4 that gets around 26 mpg in town... If I can find an automatic complete for less than $400 I may go for this... otherwise I should look at how I could put a TDI engine into a decent Cherokee... anyone heard anything about that? The 1.9L TDI supposedly puts out 99hp and 180 ftlbs of torque while the 2.1L Renault puts out 85 hp and 135 ftlbs... SHOULD I PASS ON THIS PROJECT? john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:59:31 -0600 From: Alec Cordova Subject: Re: [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... You already did an XJ with the factory diesel, so you should know better than to do it again. Unless the automatic transmission is as good a match for that engine as the pairing in an 85 300D, performance will be even worse than what you previously had, and I doubt that thing would be capable of towing much of anything. Even if it means a Frankendiesel, you're probably much better off putting a more common (in the US) diesel into an XJ, both in terms of livability and even resale. Unless you just want another one or two year project that you'll sell, I don't see this meeting your long term needs. Alec On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:58 PM, john wrote: > SHOULD I PASS ON THIS PROJECT? > http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/ > > I found this '86 Cherokee 2.1L Turbo Diesel... it has > a cracked bell housing to the manual transmission. Supposedly > this has a new injection pump and extra parts... > > I'm thinking of putting the optional automatic (904) in it... > if I can source the parts... > > however, I just got the pictures, cell phone, but good enough to > see the body damage on pass side, rear bumper, torn seats (which > I'd replace anyway)... but what concerns me more is the hacked > up intercooler setup... why??? they had a factory intercooler > setup that sat down by the front bumper and was nice and tidy > and compact... with a good air filter setup... this looks like > something I'd frankenstein into a logging truck... > > The seller has dropped the price considerably... won't go below > a grand because the injection pump rebuild was $700... I found > the manual transmission complete for $350... the shop she had it > in claimed a new bell housing alone was $800, quoted almost $1600 > to fix this... (the starter mount cracked on the bell housing). > > The automatic used is a 904, but I'm not sure about the bell housing > setup, and if I can find a flex plate and torque converter... > > http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/ > > This is a Renault 2.1L all aluminum turbo Diesel... and it has > a high maintenance rubber band... like every 20k... it will also > leak oil like a french fry strainer, meaning o-ring replacements... > the electrics are provided by the french version of the prince of > darkness, paris-rhone... sometimes by bosch... maybe this will have > bosch... but the french and the germans never really got together > well, so I'm not sure about the arrangement. > > I'm confident that for around $1500 I could put this thing on the > road with a manual transmission, maybe an automatic... likely spend > another $300-$500 fixing the a/c, then another $300-$400 for decent > seats... so I'd have $2,000-2,500 into an old Jeep with firestone > tires, ratty interior, a bent rear bumper and body damage... > > but it would be a 4x4 that gets around 26 mpg in town... > > If I can find an automatic complete for less than $400 I may > go for this... > > > otherwise I should look at how I could put > a TDI engine into a decent Cherokee... anyone heard anything about that? > > The 1.9L TDI supposedly puts out 99hp and 180 ftlbs of torque while the > 2.1L Renault puts out 85 hp and 135 ftlbs... > > > SHOULD I PASS ON THIS PROJECT? > > john > > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:29:03 +0000 From: dieseljohn@comcast.net Subject: [db] Re: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD If the automatic had a rear pump like a mercedes it could also be bump started. john at http://wagoneers.com - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Blair Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:51:22 To: ; ; xj; local Jeep list Subject: RE: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD At least it's a standard trans so you could put in 2nd or third and push start it. Funny you should mention that. Oh wait, that was on the cj-2a, never mind. john at http://wagoneers.com - -----Original Message----- From: Tesar Landon-R16884 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 16:24:24 To: xj@digest.net; john meister; dieseljohn@comcast.net; local Jeep list Subject: RE: RE: fsj: Automatic trans 2.1TD Maybe there's a backup hand crank available to the driver from inside the cab.... - - L ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] car colors On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Wes Molsberry wrote: # Never mind the details.....it's silver....I hate silver cars. silver is superb... or at least tolerable... unless it's really been abused... (like this xj: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/) I'm not convinced that isn't frost, or dirt... might take a look with my on, hoping that he'll replace 2 of his 3 cars with the Diesel xj, so he'll just have that and his 300D. the '85 GW and the '90 929 could go away and we will be able to navigate our driveway with one less obstacle... only two, maybe three more years before he gets his degree... :) my wj, vw, 300d and soon my j10 will be some variation of gray/silver... it's a forgiving color... I still like light ivory creme, light yellow or tan... my wife and friends object... I don't like white, something about a white jeep or car when it starts getting old that just doesn't look right... not crazy about burgundy either... had less than good experiences with a few chevies and jeeps that were that color. although I did have a '67 mustang that color, that was a good one... did 140 mph on the autobahn with it... have a friend who is quite hard over on green... something about a car that color falling on his head during an earthquake or something... ;) I'm not a fan of red either... but when you buy only used cars you usually don't have a choice... repainting is expensive and never really produces the quality you'd expect, unless you really spend a lot... to get the paint job I'd want it would cost many times more than what I would be able to buy the vehicle for... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:19:22 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] Re: fsj: re: programmers this was a great response Troy. Very good understanding of what's behind them and provides a lot of good advice... there's always trade offs when tweaking... sometimes those trade offs can be expensive. on one TDI forum they say to disable the EGR in the computer... another forum says to block it off and eliminate the error code... turns out the one saying to change the computer ends up messing with the mass air flow and hurts economy.... the other group doesn't report any bad side effects... egr's on Diesels are a very bad idea... http://johnmeister.com/DIESELS/tdi/tdi-clean-intake/P1120756_2010-09-04.jpg ref: my 4.7L V8 in the WJ... got input from a friend saying to use NGK plugs, hotter range, he suggested: NGK BKR5E-11 any thoughts, suggestions, confirmations? The WJ has been getting horrible mileage in town, but is rarely used and then to haul 4,000lbs of j10 hydraulic dump trailer with topsoil in it... we're talking 10-11mpg... used to get 14 mpg. it will do 21 mpg on the freeway when out of this area. ;) 18-19mpg through the rockies... last tune up was 2006, but that was less than 20, maybe 30K ago... how often are we supposed to change spark plugs (asks Diesel John... ;) ... this is my only gas powered rig, except the lawnmower... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: # Sorry, I wasn't paying much attention to the earlier discussions regarding # programmers and tuners. I happen to sell several brands, please send me any # further questions if interested. # # The item in question was a Hypertech. I do sell those on occasion, but I # sell other brands more frequently. I have no personal experience with the # tuners on a Jeep. None of ours are new enough to use programmers... heh. # # Superchips makes a tuner for the 4.0, and also Superchips makes a tuner for # the 4.7 WJ (Superchips part number 3875) Go to the superchips.com website # and do Y-M-M to verify the PN and see the specs. # # If buying new, for the money I'd skip the 'mileage only' tuners and get the # standard tuners. (FlashPaq not just MileasgeXS) It's a minor price upgrade # and the "performance tuners" also include the "mileage tuners" features and # programming but not vice-versa. Often, people tell me they wind up using # the "performance tune" to get the best mileage on the HWY. Any gains in the # city are very difficult to substantiate or expect due to random variables. # # I normally sell to customers who drive full size pickups, gas and diesel, # with larger motors. However, when I do sell chips/ tuners/programmers to # customers with smaller vehicles and engines, I generally warn them that they # are not gaining much because the smaller displacement motors can only do so # much. Most GAS tuners gain a very modest percentage of # efficiency/performance; on a smaller engine there is only so much to work # with. # # On all the gas tuners that I know of, you normally choose an Octane quality # of fuel that you use, and then a "Towing/Economy" or a "Performance" tune # suitable to that octane. All the chip advertisements are normally for 91+ # Octane with the "Performance" tune. (Most HP claims are at very high RPM) # Obviously, it's mostly a matter of ignition timing and fuel map curves. # # The way I explain to customers is that the OEM engineers leave a little room # in computer for "idiot proof" unforeseen circumstances. They don't know if # you will be at sea level with 91 octane, or at 8,000 ft using 85 octane. The # tuners nudge the fuel/ ignition maps and ask you to make a commitment to a # minimum octane fuel to squeak out a little bit more efficiency. That # efficiency can be used for more power or more mileage; depending on the tune # and the driver. # # None of the tuner manufactures will promise MPG gains; it is too dependent on # driver habits and real world conditions. They CAN hook a vehicle to a dyno # in a lab-like environment and show repeatable results on chart for that, # though. # # Most commonly, customers report improved throttle response, and occasional # minor gains in MPG if consciously driven for MPG, primarily on the HWY. The # throttle response is helpful for those towing / looking for power because you # might not gain much total HP, but the engine revs better, creating a better # driving experience. I ask customers if the other features of the tuners such # as: tire size corrections / View & clear DTC's, Rev Limiter & Speed Governor # restriction editing and so forth are of benefit to them. If they are NOT, # they might be disappointed because the mileage/HP gains are so slight. If # you look at the over-all functionality of the devices, however, it can be a # good fit for many people. # # For Jeep engines, and more info try: # http://www.edgeproducts.com (4.0 only, I think.) # http://www.superchips.com (Various, widest range of engine coverage.) # http://www.hypertech.com/ (4.0 only, I think; but may have # products for Hemi's) # http://www.bullydog.com (Hemi only, I think) # http://www.diablosport.com (Hemi for sure, possibly others are # available.) # # Also not mentioned are all the OBD2 monitoring devices available; they are # not "tuners" and do not actually edit any settings but they allow for # monitoring of fuel consumption, throttle position, and other parameters of # interest in real time that can give driver feedback. BullyDog has the # WatchDog "driving coach" which gives a real-time estimation of fuel usage and # offers suggestions for better driver technique and feedback for better MPG. # I have not used any of these products, but mention it for those who may be # curious. It's like driving around with a code reader / scan tool attached # all the time. There is an MSD product called "Dash Hawk" that does this, and # the Edge "Insight", etc. # # Regards, # Troy # # tsp@crptruck.com # # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3371 **********************************