From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Mon Jan 31 19:03:12 2011 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, February 1 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3385 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 [db] 190D 2.5 NA Re: [db] 190D 2.5 NA [db] epa ratings Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:52:03 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 you'll have to send some pictures of what yours looks like under the hood... I can see a simple engine swap as a means of increasing economy and power... I doubt that putting a turbo on that n/a 2.5 would be recommended, haven't heard of any engine that would be happy like that, except the GM v8's and then with an aftermarket setup... GM so underpowered it's Diesels after the 5.7 fiasco that one can easily get more power out of those things without hurting anything... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, jjs3rd@ix.netcom.com wrote: # John, # # Thanks for seal repair link. yah just have to find a warm garage to get the seals done. The Northeast keeps getting whacked with snow more tomorrow. # # Your 300 looks similar to the 190DT both are 602 motors. The manifolds are defiantly different not sure what else. # # Not sure about the transmission for turbo vs non turbo 2.5 Know that the turbo has the same rear end as the 300 turbo wagon. Rear end is making some noise and was just preparing myself. # # If the car is in good shape go for it. As to creature comforts well they are often the first to go i.e. cruise control. # # J # # # -----Original Message----- # >From: john # >Sent: Jan 31, 2011 3:29 PM # >To: jjs3rd@ix.netcom.com # >Cc: diesel-benz list # >Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 # > # >was looking at the pictures of the engine, not sure if the turbo 2.5L would drop # >into that hole or not... # > http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/images/3019-engine-big.jpg # > # >also, replacing high pressure seals on the non-turbo would require taking the intake manifold off... # > # >does your 2.5L TD look like the one in my '91 300D? # > # >http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/124-intake-glowplugs-300d-2.5TD/ALL.html # >http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/Pressure-Valve-Seal-Replacement-2010/ALL.html # > # > # >I'm thinking that the 2.5L, even naturally aspirated, might have different gearing in the transmission # >to make it quicker off the line than the 2.2L, thoughts? # > # >Talked to the guy about the 190D, it's a non-turbo, about 275,000 miles... he's going to send # >me pictures, he's about 50 miles away... but he'll meet me somewhere closer... # > # >everything I'm reading about the 190D with the 2.5L is encouraging... other than performance # >issues I can't think of any reason why a 190D wouldn't be a decent commuter over a Jetta... guess # >a test drive will answer the question... I am being spoiled by steering wheel mounted controls, # >a cruise control that works quite well, and a very good heat/ac system... along with other nice creature # >comfort items not found in the older mercedes... # > # >john # > # > # > # > ----- # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # >http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # >On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, jjs3rd@ix.netcom.com wrote: # > # > # John, # > # # > # As you might recall, from past list requests, I own one of the 1300 1987 190D 2.5 Turbos. # > # # > # Yes, the badge should be there and the real tell tail is the right fender. She cruises along fine at 80 steady on the highway. And averages about 32 - 35 mpg highway depending on season load etc. FYI roof rack with sporting gear is a mileage killer. # > # # > # Have a few issues including the injection seals so she is not performing well at the moment but do expect to take care of that. # > # # > # Look in the 6th and 7th character of the vin for the chassis number. 28 would be the turbo. # > # # > # 190D 2.5 # > # Chassis number 201.126 # > # Engine number 602.911 # > # # > # 190D 2.5 Turbo # > # Chassis number 201.128 # > # Engine number 602.961 # > # # > # Good Luck, # > # # > # John # > # # > # P.S. The climate control unit is an expensive part if its shot. Something I have learned to live with by cutting coolant flow to heater core in summer. # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # -----Original Message----- # > # >From: john # > # >Sent: Jan 31, 2011 1:26 PM # > # >To: diesel-benz list # > # >Subject: [db] '87 190D 2.5 # > # > # > # >just stumbled upon an '87 190D with a 2.5L Diesel.. ad doesn't say Turbo, # > # >and the rear picture just shows the 2.5 badge indicating it's likely not the turbo, # > # >my '91 300D clearly says 2.5L Turbo on the back. I think the boys in stuttgart are proud of their turbos. # > # > # > # >I know how the 2.2L Automatic in the 190D peforms... about 34 mpg in town if I recall... nice handling # > # >and all that, but without the turbo it was pretty slow off the line... anyone know off hand if that # > # >extra 300cc would make a difference off line? or maybe there were other tweaks between '85 and '87... # > # > # > # >not sure how a 2.5L naturally aspirated would do in comparison... but, just a random thought, # > # >swapping in a 2.5 TD wouldn't be a problem, would it? no electronics, nothing fancy to worry # > # >about... except clearance for the turbo and the exhaust connections... my '91 is reasonably quick... that # > # >same engine in a smaller car would be pretty sweet. plus I know that the engine will tolerate bioDiesel, # > # >and I can change the high pressure seals easily in an afternoon... ;) # > # > # > # >oh yeah, and it's the same color as my '91 300D... smoke silver... how cool is that? matching mercedes. # > # > # > # >the ad said 35 mpg, assuming that's in town... hoping it's a turbo... the guy is asking around 3k # > # >for it... if the a/c works and it's a turbo my TDI will be for sale... will have to drive it # > # >if it's not a turbo to see if it's got more off the line performance since I'll be driving it in traffic # > # >usually. That 2.2L didn't get into it's giddyup mode until around 30 mph if I recall... not good # > # >in tight traffic. # > # > # > # >The other issues with the 201 were overall quality compared to the 124... ride wasn't as good... but # > # >handling was better... felt sportier, smaller... more fun... rear suspension comes to mine, squeaking... # > # >bushings... cruise didn't work consistently, but I haven't had a benz yet that did... climate control # > # >was ok on mine... door locks worked fine... can't think of anything else, scott, any other issues I've # > # >forgotten about? # > # > # > # >any reality checks? am I forgetting anything? I think the only reason I parted with my 190D was # > # >because I scored the 124. Going from a manual transmission Jetta to an automatic 190D will be a nice # > # >change. The jetta has a lot of nice features and a nice feel overall, but I think the automatic trans # > # >and nicer body will be to my liking, not a big hit in mileage... # > # > # > # >Guess a test drive will answer the questions... dang, this car is 24 years old isn't it? It's like # > # >I'm living in a time warp... '87 seems new to me... :) sure hope it's a nice car... # > # > # > # >hoping for a turbo, # > # >john # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # >http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:02:22 -0500 From: Subject: [db] 190D 2.5 NA o;?After the 2.2L diesel I had an 86 2.5L NA diesel. This car accelerates quite a bit better than the 2.2 and feels more like a normal car. Suspension is basically all the same and the same items wear out. Fuel consumption was around 7.5 liters per 100k. Engine was getting noise around 3000 rpm b^S 110 km and got quiter at higher speeds. Trunk opening fairly high, rear seats small. However, it is an old high mileage car and most likely will take quite a bit of time and money to bring it up to stuff. Wiard PS had a couple of times a ride in an 87 190 2.5 turbo and that influenced me to buy the W124.128 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:46:37 +0000 From: dieseljohn@comcast.net Subject: Re: [db] 190D 2.5 NA Who knows, it could be in fine shape. So, performance-wise, how much different was the 190d with na 2.5 vs your 124 with 2.5TD? The 190d is lighter... Guess the question is whether or not the 190d will be as nice to drive as the jetta. Gaining an AT for even 10 mpg is fine by me. 7.5l/100km = 32.42, which is about what I expected, my '91 300d typically gets 30 in town. Also noticed that the epa rating differences between the na and turbo showed the turbo version getting slightly less. 2 mpg in fact. John - ------Original Message------ From: wmpless@iprimus.ca Sender: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net To: diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Subject: [db] 190D 2.5 NA Sent: Jan 31, 2011 13:02 o;?After the 2.2L diesel I had an 86 2.5L NA diesel. This car accelerates quite a bit better than the 2.2 and feels more like a normal car. Suspension is basically all the same and the same items wear out. Fuel consumption was around 7.5 liters per 100k. Engine was getting noise around 3000 rpm b^S 110 km and got quiter at higher speeds. Trunk opening fairly high, rear seats small. However, it is an old high mileage car and most likely will take quite a bit of time and money to bring it up to stuff. Wiard PS had a couple of times a ride in an 87 190 2.5 turbo and that influenced me to buy the W124.128 john at http://wagoneers.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] epa ratings from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm 1987 Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Diesel 26 City 31 Hwy 28 Combined 1987 Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Turbo Diesel 24 City 29 Hwy 26 Combined 1991 Mercedes-Benz 300D 2.5 Turbo Diesel 23 City 30 Hwy 26 Combined REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE - 30 mpg overall average, mostly in town, best freeway mileage 39.75 mpg - typical mid-30's 2003 Volkswagen Jetta Wagon Diesel 35 City 45 Hwy 39 Combined REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE - 36 mpg overall average since I've had it, mostly in town, best highway (3 pass blast) was 52mpg with bad injectors/pump, haven't taken it out since then... waiting on the 3rd tank to see what it's doing... 41 + 38 + ?? takes so long... :) these readings are reassuring... my '91 300D almost always gets 30 mpg in town, worst ever mileage is around 24-26 mpg on weak BioDiesel... my '03 Jetta is still on the 3rd tank after the pump swap... got 41/38, this tank will determine real world mileage... although this last tank saw many trips to Frys in Renton on I-405... like about 6 of them... that's about 70 miles each trip... still at about a quarter tank and have gone around 550 miles... ...it's things like that, and the radio controls on the steering wheel, heated leather seats, a working cruise & a/c that want to make me overlook the additional maintenance of a TDI with it's rubber band and egr clogging intake... and of course the pain in the neck (for my wife) shifting... I've driven a fair number of manual transmissions, but I can't seem to get this TDI right... in fact, it's officially been named Koenigstiger - king tiger, or "tigger" for short... remember how "tiggers" are bouncy? :) I think downshifting is the most interesting... because I try to get this thing into as tall of gear as soon as possible, often when I'm downshifting it's more like upshifting... and the jetta will accelerate when the clutch is released... :) weird feeling, expecting to slow down, not speed up... the engine winds up so quickly I'm rowing through the gear box trying to keep the rpm under 2k for the best economy... what is nice is 3rd gear... redline in 3rd is just over 70 mph... so if I'm trying to merge into traffic from around 30 or so, I can just leave it in 3rd and power my way to freeway speeds... have to remember to drop two gears if I want to accelerate in town as I'm usually in 5th at 35mph or so... I haven't done the math yet, but with this 20% larger pump it appears that with this gearing this thing could likely do 120+ mph... getting to 80 is effortless... it keeps pulling, even up hill... but finding a place to unleash the tigger is the challenge... traffic... it's every where. :) the other issue is finding a straight, level open stretch of road that isn't patrolled... but I suppose that's good, keeps me out of trouble, right? anyway, will check out the 190D with the 2.5L n/a engine... I suspect that my '03 Jetta, even with the crumpled rear quarter is going to be a nicer ride... but we'll see... I'm often pleasantly surprised when looking at used cars, so many people undersell, or understate or have higher standards than I expect... :) but then there are always those that think that pile of scrap metal is made out of platinum... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:17:05 -0500 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 My '87 190TD is going strong at 300K miles. 32mpg with snow tires. If everything is just right and I baby it, 40mpg. It's not a fast car by current standards, but it moves out smartly and has no trouble in any kind of traffic. You can tell the difference at a glance if you pop the hood: the air cleaner is on the right with a turbo, left on the NA car. Mike Frank At 12:20 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: > >just stumbled upon an '87 190D with a 2.5L Diesel.. ad doesn't say Turbo, > >and the rear picture just shows the 2.5 badge indicating it's > likely not the turbo, > >my '91 300D clearly says 2.5L Turbo on the back. I think the boys > in stuttgart are proud of their turbos. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:22:28 -0500 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Of course it would. But the problem is that the turbo air filter is located on the right front corner, and breathes through a "gill" in the side of the fender. So you would have to replace the fender in addition to the engine. Mike Frank At 03:29 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >was looking at the pictures of the engine, not sure if the turbo >2.5L would drop >into that hole or not... > http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/images/3019-engine-big.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:49:39 -0500 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 I would just mask the area and drill evenly spaced holes;-) in the fender - problem solved. On 1/31/2011 8:22 PM, Michael Frank wrote: > > Of course it would. But the problem is that the turbo air filter is > located on the right front corner, and breathes through a "gill" in > the side of the fender. So you would have to replace the fender in > addition to the engine. > > Mike Frank > > > At 03:29 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >> was looking at the pictures of the engine, not sure if the turbo 2.5L >> would drop >> into that hole or not... >> http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/images/3019-engine-big.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:11:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: jjs3rd@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 As an 190DT owner im not abdocating this but. 87 190DT right fenders are easily available. But that wont make it a 128 chassis - -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Frank >Sent: Jan 31, 2011 8:22 PM >To: diesel-benz list >Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 > >Of course it would. But the problem is that the turbo air filter is >located on the right front corner, and breathes through a "gill" in >the side of the fender. So you would have to replace the fender in >addition to the engine. > >Mike Frank > > >At 03:29 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >>was looking at the pictures of the engine, not sure if the turbo >>2.5L would drop >>into that hole or not... >> http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/images/3019-engine-big.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:05:23 -0500 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 I don't know about that. Maybe you could fit a few portholes from a Buick. MIke Frank At 08:49 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >I would just mask the area and drill evenly spaced holes;-) >in the fender - problem solved. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:31:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: jjs3rd@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 Ouch The sheet metal is $233.10 http://www.adsitco.com/category.asp?CID=192 - -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Frank >Sent: Jan 31, 2011 9:05 PM >To: diesel-benz list >Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 > >I don't know about that. Maybe you could fit a few portholes from a Buick. > >MIke Frank > >At 08:49 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >>I would just mask the area and drill evenly spaced holes;-) >>in the fender - problem solved. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:02:53 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '87 190D 2.5 I think the idea of buying a fender would be better... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, Edward Pomeroy wrote: # I would just mask the area and drill evenly spaced holes;-) # in the fender - problem solved. # # On 1/31/2011 8:22 PM, Michael Frank wrote: # > # > Of course it would. But the problem is that the turbo air filter is located # > on the right front corner, and breathes through a "gill" in the side of the # > fender. So you would have to replace the fender in addition to the engine. # > # > Mike Frank # > # > # > At 03:29 PM 1/31/2011, you wrote: # > > was looking at the pictures of the engine, not sure if the turbo 2.5L # > > would drop # > > into that hole or not... # > > http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/images/3019-engine-big.jpg # # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3385 **********************************