From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Mon Feb 28 09:44:13 2011 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, February 28 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3403 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] more Diesel thoughts Re: [db] 1959 190D Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts [db] 59 190D Re: [db] 59 190D Re: [db] 1959 190D Re: [db] 1959 190D Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] more Diesel thoughts while a 190D would be ok economy wise... the quality issues, colors available and so on bother me, not to mention that egress wasn't all that great into the one on Saturday, and the guy had the seat back a ways too, because I couldn't reach the pedals... If I recall the Jetta is a little wider, like 2 inches more, than the 190D... while visibility is good in the 190 and the 2.5 NA performs well and gets better mileage... I'm thinking that a manually operated clutch lever on the Jetta isn't a half bad idea for heavy traffic... I'd use it only rarely so it can't be some big ugly monstrosity... any ideas for sources or should I just figure out my own servo motor setup... ;) Also, there are a couple 124 series around for about $4k that are like my '91 300D, well actually on is a '91 300D 2.5 TD, but no heated seats... there's also a '95 E300 with the 3.0L I-6... SO MY QUESTION IS THIS... was there a quality degregation in the 124 series as we approach the intro of the 210 in '96, or did they get better until the end? I know the 123s did... but I don't know about the 124s. I've seen a few '87's and '91... the '91s seemed to be quite nice, and I know bruce has a '92(?) and he's had more issues with his... If a '95 124 E300 with that straight 6 will get the same mileage as my '91 and the quality will be as good or better... I may look at getting one... I actually like the way the headlights and grille work on the '95... otherwise, will stick with the beat up Jetta getting 34 to 52 mpg... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:16:54 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: [db] 1959 190D A friend in Germany went through the same thing on an old gasser. He was a good welder and had it cleaned up in a very short time. I drove that car for a while and he shipped it to the states for his folks. The rust is just on the passenger side in that one spot. There are a few other places that I'd reinforce. Of course I don't live in a rust prone area and these wounds likely occurred years ago elsewhere. Here they will not get worse quickly. I have experienced horrific rust, I grew up in the Chicago area. :) john at http://wagoneers.com - -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Rigley Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:41:45 To: Cc: john; Subject: Re: [db] 1959 190D +1 @ run away, its one thing swopping out big dirty diesels but crusty subframes.. * shudder * On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > > http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1959-190D/ALL.html > *** What a cutie! > > I think I actually replaced a starter motor on one of these. Wait, > that was the gasser version. Back when I was wrenching down at the gas > station. > > Don't walk away, RUN. You'll spend much more money than it's worth. > Big bucks to turn this into a decent car. By the time you get it apart > enough > to fix the underbody rust, you'll be into it for a new interior for sure. > Then a new paint job. New exhaust system. And no doubt a full mechanical > restoration. I've been there, done that - with cars of similar vintage > and condition. > > - Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:26:51 -0600 From: Alec Cordova Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts There were issues with the engine wiring harness that started on the gassers around 1994 and weren't resolved until around 96. I would suspect that if there was a diesel engine change in that range, they could be affected by it. Story I've heard is that they switched to more environmentally wise insulation on the wires, but the initial formulation did not hold up well to the heat soaking. I think your detailed list of one of the recent investigated W201s mentioned $1800 worth of replacing the engine wiring harness. That would be the one. If it's been professionally replaced for something like $1500-$2000, it should be fine. If not, I would avoid 1994 through 1996 model years just to be safe. I got caught by this on a 1995 C280 gasser. Alec On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:59 AM, john wrote: > while a 190D would be ok economy wise... the quality issues, colors available and so on > bother me, not to mention that egress wasn't all that great into the one on Saturday, > and the guy had the seat back a ways too, because I couldn't reach the pedals... If > I recall the Jetta is a little wider, like 2 inches more, than the 190D... while > visibility is good in the 190 and the 2.5 NA performs well and gets better mileage... > > I'm thinking that a manually operated clutch lever on the Jetta isn't a half bad idea > for heavy traffic... I'd use it only rarely so it can't be some big ugly monstrosity... > any ideas for sources or should I just figure out my own servo motor setup... ;) > > > Also, there are a couple 124 series around for about $4k that are like my '91 300D, > well actually on is a '91 300D 2.5 TD, but no heated seats... there's also a '95 E300 > with the 3.0L I-6... > > SO MY QUESTION IS THIS... was there a quality degregation in the 124 series as we > approach the intro of the 210 in '96, or did they get better until the end? > > I know the 123s did... but I don't know about the 124s. I've seen a few '87's and > '91... the '91s seemed to be quite nice, and I know bruce has a '92(?) and he's had > more issues with his... > > If a '95 124 E300 with that straight 6 will get the same mileage as my '91 and > the quality will be as good or better... I may look at getting one... I actually > like the way the headlights and grille work on the '95... > > otherwise, will stick with the beat up Jetta getting 34 to 52 mpg... > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:29:31 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts Sounds like a 95 will have issues. Thanx. john at http://wagoneers.com - -----Original Message----- From: Alec Cordova Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:26:51 To: john Cc: diesel-benz list Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts There were issues with the engine wiring harness that started on the gassers around 1994 and weren't resolved until around 96. I would suspect that if there was a diesel engine change in that range, they could be affected by it. Story I've heard is that they switched to more environmentally wise insulation on the wires, but the initial formulation did not hold up well to the heat soaking. I think your detailed list of one of the recent investigated W201s mentioned $1800 worth of replacing the engine wiring harness. That would be the one. If it's been professionally replaced for something like $1500-$2000, it should be fine. If not, I would avoid 1994 through 1996 model years just to be safe. I got caught by this on a 1995 C280 gasser. Alec On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:59 AM, john wrote: > while a 190D would be ok economy wise... the quality issues, colors available and so on > bother me, not to mention that egress wasn't all that great into the one on Saturday, > and the guy had the seat back a ways too, because I couldn't reach the pedals... If > I recall the Jetta is a little wider, like 2 inches more, than the 190D... while > visibility is good in the 190 and the 2.5 NA performs well and gets better mileage... > > I'm thinking that a manually operated clutch lever on the Jetta isn't a half bad idea > for heavy traffic... I'd use it only rarely so it can't be some big ugly monstrosity... > any ideas for sources or should I just figure out my own servo motor setup... ;) > > > Also, there are a couple 124 series around for about $4k that are like my '91 300D, > well actually on is a '91 300D 2.5 TD, but no heated seats... there's also a '95 E300 > with the 3.0L I-6... > > SO MY QUESTION IS THIS... was there a quality degregation in the 124 series as we > approach the intro of the 210 in '96, or did they get better until the end? > > I know the 123s did... but I don't know about the 124s. I've seen a few '87's and > '91... the '91s seemed to be quite nice, and I know bruce has a '92(?) and he's had > more issues with his... > > If a '95 124 E300 with that straight 6 will get the same mileage as my '91 and > the quality will be as good or better... I may look at getting one... I actually > like the way the headlights and grille work on the '95... > > otherwise, will stick with the beat up Jetta getting 34 to 52 mpg... > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:32:33 -0600 From: Alec Cordova Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts Again, if a 95 has had the engine wiring harness replaced, it should be safe, just make sure somebody else pays for that work. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:29 AM, john wrote: > Sounds like a 95 will have issues. Thanx. > john at http://wagoneers.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Cordova > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:26:51 > To: john > Cc: diesel-benz list > Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts > > There were issues with the engine wiring harness that started on the > gassers around 1994 and weren't resolved until around 96. I would > suspect that if there was a diesel engine change in that range, they > could be affected by it. Story I've heard is that they switched to > more environmentally wise insulation on the wires, but the initial > formulation did not hold up well to the heat soaking. > > I think your detailed list of one of the recent investigated W201s > mentioned $1800 worth of replacing the engine wiring harness. That > would be the one. > > If it's been professionally replaced for something like $1500-$2000, > it should be fine. If not, I would avoid 1994 through 1996 model years > just to be safe. > > I got caught by this on a 1995 C280 gasser. > > Alec > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:59 AM, john wrote: >> while a 190D would be ok economy wise... the quality issues, colors available and so on >> bother me, not to mention that egress wasn't all that great into the one on Saturday, >> and the guy had the seat back a ways too, because I couldn't reach the pedals... If >> I recall the Jetta is a little wider, like 2 inches more, than the 190D... while >> visibility is good in the 190 and the 2.5 NA performs well and gets better mileage... >> >> I'm thinking that a manually operated clutch lever on the Jetta isn't a half bad idea >> for heavy traffic... I'd use it only rarely so it can't be some big ugly monstrosity... >> any ideas for sources or should I just figure out my own servo motor setup... ;) >> >> >> Also, there are a couple 124 series around for about $4k that are like my '91 300D, >> well actually on is a '91 300D 2.5 TD, but no heated seats... there's also a '95 E300 >> with the 3.0L I-6... >> >> SO MY QUESTION IS THIS... was there a quality degregation in the 124 series as we >> approach the intro of the 210 in '96, or did they get better until the end? >> >> I know the 123s did... but I don't know about the 124s. I've seen a few '87's and >> '91... the '91s seemed to be quite nice, and I know bruce has a '92(?) and he's had >> more issues with his... >> >> If a '95 124 E300 with that straight 6 will get the same mileage as my '91 and >> the quality will be as good or better... I may look at getting one... I actually >> like the way the headlights and grille work on the '95... >> >> otherwise, will stick with the beat up Jetta getting 34 to 52 mpg... >> >> john >> >> >> >> ----- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 11:34:18 -0500 From: Subject: [db] 59 190D most valuable part is the Becker radio. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:35:58 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: [db] 59 190D How much? - ------Original Message------ From: wmpless@iprimus.ca Sender: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net To: diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Subject: [db] 59 190D Sent: Feb 28, 2011 08:34 most valuable part is the Becker radio. john at http://wagoneers.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 1959 190D it doesn't NEED to be replaced... :) see, that's the problem... y'all are seeing this as a trailer queen... not just an old car... ;) of course over time one would fix all those things... and then some... but the car has to be unique enough to expend the energy... for me, this leaves me listless... bored... I would like the challenge of getting it running though, NOW that would be fun... I figure a couple hours if nothing has totally crapped out in the IP or injectors... :) the car does need to be rescued though... hopefully these pictures will spare it and find someone with the skills, time and money to recover it... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Alec Cordova wrote: # Agreed. The pontons were great for their time, and even for some time # after, but that one looks like at least a project and a half, and it # gets you at best an interesting vehicle with almost no modern # functionality. Even the gasket in the speedometer needs to be # replaced. # # You should consider this scene played out. I'll get some more popcorn # while I wait for the next scene. # # Alec # # On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Stephen Rigley wrote: # > +1 @ run away, its one thing swopping out big dirty diesels but crusty # > subframes.. * shudder * # > # > # > # > # > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Jerry Kaidor wrote: # > # >> > http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1959-190D/ALL.html # >> *** What a cutie! # >> # >> I think I actually replaced a starter motor on one of these. Wait, # >> that was the gasser version. Back when I was wrenching down at the gas # >> station. # >> # >> Don't walk away, RUN. You'll spend much more money than it's worth. # >> Big bucks to turn this into a decent car. By the time you get it apart # >> enough # >> to fix the underbody rust, you'll be into it for a new interior for sure. # >> Then a new paint job. New exhaust system. And no doubt a full mechanical # >> restoration. I've been there, done that - with cars of similar vintage # >> and condition. # >> # >> - Jerry # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:39:04 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 1959 190D why not put it on a JEEP chassis and make it a 4x4 then? a lot easier popping a unibody on a frame than on another unibody... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Stephen Rigley wrote: # if it did.. I wonder would the shell sit on a circa-'88 2.5 190D ;-) # # popcorn is on! # # On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 3:17 PM, john wrote: # # > Fear not, it won't follow me home. ;) # > ------Original Message------ # > From: Jerry Kaidor # > To: J # > Cc: dbl # > ReplyTo: jerry@tr2.com # > Subject: Re: [db] 1959 190D # > Sent: Feb 28, 2011 05:47 # > # > > http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1959-190D/ALL.html # > *** What a cutie! # > # > I think I actually replaced a starter motor on one of these. Wait, # > that was the gasser version. Back when I was wrenching down at the gas # > station. # > # > Don't walk away, RUN. You'll spend much more money than it's worth. # > Big bucks to turn this into a decent car. By the time you get it apart # > enough # > to fix the underbody rust, you'll be into it for a new interior for sure. # > Then a new paint job. New exhaust system. And no doubt a full mechanical # > restoration. I've been there, done that - with cars of similar vintage # > and condition. # > # > - Jerry # > # > # > # > # > # > john at http://wagoneers.com # > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts the '95 is at a dealer... dealers typically aren't very helpful, forthcoming or eager to provide information... they claim ignorance which often to me seems like outright deception... If I buy from a dealership it's only because the price is right and I know what I'm getting even if they don't. I'm not sure if dealers dispose of useful information to avoid liability or if they are really that clueless... either way, dealers aren't on my short list of purchase options. I'd rather buy from a private party, even if the guy is lying through his teeth, a flat out lying owner is still more honorable than a dealer... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Alec Cordova wrote: # Again, if a 95 has had the engine wiring harness replaced, it should # be safe, just make sure somebody else pays for that work. # # On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:29 AM, john wrote: # > Sounds like a 95 will have issues. Thanx. # > john at http://wagoneers.com # > # > -----Original Message----- # > From: Alec Cordova # > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:26:51 # > To: john # > Cc: diesel-benz list # > Subject: Re: [db] more Diesel thoughts # > # > There were issues with the engine wiring harness that started on the # > gassers around 1994 and weren't resolved until around 96. I would # > suspect that if there was a diesel engine change in that range, they # > could be affected by it. Story I've heard is that they switched to # > more environmentally wise insulation on the wires, but the initial # > formulation did not hold up well to the heat soaking. # > # > I think your detailed list of one of the recent investigated W201s # > mentioned $1800 worth of replacing the engine wiring harness. That # > would be the one. # > # > If it's been professionally replaced for something like $1500-$2000, # > it should be fine. If not, I would avoid 1994 through 1996 model years # > just to be safe. # > # > I got caught by this on a 1995 C280 gasser. # > # > Alec # > # > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:59 AM, john wrote: # >> while a 190D would be ok economy wise... the quality issues, colors available and so on # >> bother me, not to mention that egress wasn't all that great into the one on Saturday, # >> and the guy had the seat back a ways too, because I couldn't reach the pedals... If # >> I recall the Jetta is a little wider, like 2 inches more, than the 190D... while # >> visibility is good in the 190 and the 2.5 NA performs well and gets better mileage... # >> # >> I'm thinking that a manually operated clutch lever on the Jetta isn't a half bad idea # >> for heavy traffic... I'd use it only rarely so it can't be some big ugly monstrosity... # >> any ideas for sources or should I just figure out my own servo motor setup... ;) # >> # >> # >> Also, there are a couple 124 series around for about $4k that are like my '91 300D, # >> well actually on is a '91 300D 2.5 TD, but no heated seats... there's also a '95 E300 # >> with the 3.0L I-6... # >> # >> SO MY QUESTION IS THIS... was there a quality degregation in the 124 series as we # >> approach the intro of the 210 in '96, or did they get better until the end? # >> # >> I know the 123s did... but I don't know about the 124s. I've seen a few '87's and # >> '91... the '91s seemed to be quite nice, and I know bruce has a '92(?) and he's had # >> more issues with his... # >> # >> If a '95 124 E300 with that straight 6 will get the same mileage as my '91 and # >> the quality will be as good or better... I may look at getting one... I actually # >> like the way the headlights and grille work on the '95... # >> # >> otherwise, will stick with the beat up Jetta getting 34 to 52 mpg... # >> # >> john # >> # >> # >> # >> ----- # >> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # >> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # >> # > # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3403 **********************************