From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Fri Mar 18 07:59:00 2011 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, March 18 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3415 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [WJ-Grand] Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... [db] think I have it figured out... (dead 300D) Re: [db] think I have it figured out... (dead 300D) Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:55:46 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [WJ-Grand] Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... bingo... I hope... great link dave... http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_timing_cover/oil_pump_chain.jpg this is an OM603, mines is an OM602, heading for the shop manual!!! ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, dave wrote: # http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1530971-1990-300d-om602 # -timing-chain-vacuum.html # # "For me the "Problem" was the Oil Pump Drive Sprocket Bolt backed out of the # O.P. ..." # # # # http://www.mbca.org/forum/oil-pump-question-87-300d-turbo # # "Re: Oil Pump Question: 87 300D Turbo # # Are you sure he didn't recommend a vacuum pump replacement??? The original # vac. pumps on that series engine are known to fail and drop pieces into the # engine, which sometimes can cause total engine destruction." # # Like I said I know very little about the MBs, so good luck! # # # # later, # # dave AKA vwdoc1 # # # # _____ # # From: WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf # Of john # Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:05 PM # # # # rescue of the '91 300D began around 6pm... drove down, hooked up and dragged # it home on the back roads during rush hour... happy to report we were NOT # a bottleneck... :) the 4.7L v8 in that WJ has plenty of happy power... # # suspect an oil pump issue at this point. the car looks great... I can't # see parting it... but if I can't fix it for less than about $500 it's # doomed... # # my son and I were doing the speed limit in rush hour... WJ powering along... # got a little exciting going down hills, the 124 could stop both of us # though, # even without power assist... # # after getting the aged benz home and tossing it on a battery charger for a # few minutes # it cranked more quickly... valves ARE turning... of course there wasn't # enough # juice in the battery after 15 miles of 4-ways and prior cranking... # # it's in it's normal parking space... what's interesting is that I tried # to rent a dolly, $60... but they closed 15 minutes before I called... # called a tow outfit... $175 minimum!!! (to tow 15 miles!!!) # # called the dealer, oil pump isn't even available in Germany, $375... that # tells me they don't fail... # # aurora auto wrecking looked for an engine... there's one in Minnesota for # around $2k, # typically these engines go for $1200 on up... # # so, we'll see... since it turns, the valves move and it didn't make horrible # sounds, # was running amsoil and my wife and son did not abuse it when it was dying, # there's # a very good likelihood of recovery. # # anyone in the area have a compression tester for Diesels? after I get it # going # will want to do a test to make sure all the rings are good... would hate to # have it run away because of a broken ring a few weeks after fixing it. # # looks like the WJ is back in business... needs a radiator or at least leak # stop... # # so I guess I'll be replacing it, tuning it up... used 1/4 tank of gas # driving # it to work once and recovering the benz... about 50 miles total... # # not sure what a rust free, clean '91 124 body would be worth with a dead # engine... # # john # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] think I have it figured out... (dead 300D) the link to benzworld gave me some hope... just dug through my manual pdfs, think it's making sense. 1) timing chain is separate from chain to drive oil pump 2) valves turn 3) engine does turn over when cool and fresh battery 4) unlikely any bearing damage happened, synthetic amsoil would have protected them 5) the rings may have scored the cylinder walls... but the increased friction of them is what stopped the engine... they would have burned off the oil and loaded the engine... but since the engine turns and there are no horrible sounds I'm optimistic it wasn't run long enough for permanent damage. 6) I have experienced total oil loss in a Diesel before... amsoil spared it, symptoms were similar... http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump.jpg http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump-pg3.jpg http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump-pg4.jpg check out the oil-pump PDFs... this pump sits in the oil pan, a separate sprocket and chain drive the oil pump... the dealer has no oil pumps, neither does Germany... that tells me this chain broke (not likely no noises, just power loss) or the sprocket slipped... this is what one guy on benzworld experienced. http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/ at this point if this is the case I'm going to replace the timing chain if it shows any where at all... don't really feel like doing this, will get some quotes to motivate me... :) thanx Dave in Chicago for that link to benzworld, massive help! thanx Dave in Seattle for asking about shearing oil pump shafts... the rest of you, even though you were way off sometimes, still appreciate the input, because it made me think through the details... Diesels are usually pretty durable... usually when they fail it's not a happy experience... but every now and then one gets lucky. Since those valves are turning, there's not rattling, knocking or other issues and it will start and run... it has to be that lower chain, sprocket or oil pump system... but likely not the pump itself. you guys rock... these lists save millions of dollars... too bad none of us have the million dollars though... oh well... cost avoidance is a valid business metric... and works well for microsoft tactics of FUD. (fear uncertainty and doubt). later, john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 13:24:44 GMT From: "jasonbassett@juno.com" Subject: Re: [db] think I have it figured out... (dead 300D) Micro$oft.....barf! "Windows 7....because you wouldn't buy it if we called it Vista Second Edition." I tell you.....only in Micro$oft's world can so much system resources be required just for the overhead of the OS..... To be fair, XP is really Windows 2000 Second Edition, and the overhead is a bit higher than Windows 2000 by default, but most if not all of that additional overhead can be turned off, and it's still not that high if you don't. Vista.....can be trimmed a little, but not so much. It is bloated to the core...... I am glad that Shadowfax the noblest of steeds will ride again. I figured your popcorn and the list's resources would fix it in half of no time! XD Jason - ---------- Original Message ---------- From: john To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: [db] think I have it figured out... (dead 300D) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) the link to benzworld gave me some hope... just dug through my manual pdfs, think it's making sense. 1) timing chain is separate from chain to drive oil pump 2) valves turn 3) engine does turn over when cool and fresh battery 4) unlikely any bearing damage happened, synthetic amsoil would have protected them 5) the rings may have scored the cylinder walls... but the increased friction of them is what stopped the engine... they would have burned off the oil and loaded the engine... but since the engine turns and there are no horrible sounds I'm optimistic it wasn't run long enough for permanent damage. 6) I have experienced total oil loss in a Diesel before... amsoil spared it, symptoms were similar... http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump.jpg http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump-pg3.j pg http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/124-602-oil-pump-pg4.j pg check out the oil-pump PDFs... this pump sits in the oil pan, a separate sprocket and chain drive the oil pump... the dealer has no oil pumps, neither does Germany... that tells me this chain broke (not likely no noises, just power loss) or the sprocket slipped... this is what one guy on benzworld experienced. http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/PDFs/ at this point if this is the case I'm going to replace the timing chain if it shows any where at all... don't really feel like doing this, will get some quotes to motivate me... :) thanx Dave in Chicago for that link to benzworld, massive help! thanx Dave in Seattle for asking about shearing oil pump shafts... the rest of you, even though you were way off sometimes, still appreciate the input, because it made me think through the details... Diesels are usually pretty durable... usually when they fail it's not a happy experience... but every now and then one gets lucky. Since those valves are turning, there's not rattling, knocking or other issues and it will start and run... it has to be that lower chain, sprocket or oil pump system... but likely not the pump itself. you guys rock... these lists save millions of dollars... too bad none of us have the million dollars though... oh well... cost avoidance is a valid business metric... and works well for microsoft tactics of FUD. (fear uncertainty and doubt). later, john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________ Groupon™ Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d835d78df8ac207cb1st06vuc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:07:13 -0500 From: Alec Cordova Subject: Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... Wasn't the OM617 the last one with solid lifters? So yours would have hydraulic ones that appear to still work. Remember not to completely trust the dash gauge for oil pressure. I had the sender die on my M103 gasser. Well, almost die, where it would only reach 1 bar of oil pressure above 3 or 4 thousand RPM. That'll put the fear of You Know Who in you. Either way, sounds like you'll need to open things up to identify the failure, so Shadowfax is definitely benched for a little while. Alec On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:28 PM, john wrote: > after charging it a bit, it cranked normal speed in the drive... didn't > let it start... my son had it running on the freeway, but it didn't feel > right and at the slightest load it quit... no funny sounds... he was > a Diesel mechanic in the air force... he should know what bad bearings > would sound like... and there was ZERO oil pressure... > > valves move... that tells me, oil pump or flow... internal seals? > > analysis to follow... this isn't exactly a popcorn adventure, it's > like two steps back... no fun in this, unless I can increase power, > economy or add landing lights or something along those lines. > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, jasonbassett@juno.com wrote: > > # I'll give you that it sounds like a reasonable theory, but how does one fix > # it? Are you saying that the engine will loosen up once it's cooled? > # > # Pretty easy theory to test. ;D And I'm with Alec....impressin' comin' if your > # pump was bad and the bearings are OK. > # > # Jason > # > # ---------- Original Message ---------- > # From: john > # To: "Alec Cordova" > # Cc: "dbl" ,"Dave" > # Subject: Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... > # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:35:27 +0000 > # > # Since it wasn't making horrible rattling noises, turns over slowly and died > # slowly expanded rings due to heat seems probable. > # > # john at http://wagoneers.com > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: Alec Cordova > # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:28:58 > # To: > # Cc: dbl > # Subject: Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... > # > # If it was the oil pump and you fix it and it comes out OK, I'll be > # mighty impressed with that amsoil stuff. > # I'll light some popcorn-scented candles when I get home. > # > # Good luck, > # Alec > # > # On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 5:25 PM, john wrote: > # > It's running amsoil so the bearings are probably fine, the rings probably > # swelled with heat and caused it to seize, but not completely. Heard of stories > # like this before, if it was the oil pump and I fix it it will likely be ok. > # > > # > We'll see. > # > john at http://wagoneers.com > # > > # > -----Original Message----- > # > From: "jasonbassett@juno.com" > # > Sender: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net > # > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:16:15 > # > To: > # > Subject: Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the > # > WJ... > # > > # > Sorry to hear about that. It sounds like lubrication failure (probably the > # oil > # > pump), not cooling failure. You probably wiped out the bottom end in the > # > process, hence slow cranking. > # > > # > If the pistons are all good, perhaps you could get away with just redoing > # the > # > bearings on the crank, but......why would you fix just that when you have > # it > # > apart? > # > > # > Honestly, I'm surprised to hear YOU, the Meister, say that you aren't sure > # you > # > want to work on a diesel Benz! ROFL! > # > > # > Jason > # > > # > ---------- Original Message ---------- > # > From: john > # > To: undisclosed-recipients: ; > # > Subject: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... > # > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:47:40 -0700 (PDT) > # > > # > wife was driving south on I-405 and the '91 300D just quit... > # > she got it onto the shoulder... 0 oil pressure... > # > funny noise, kind of a wheezing or whining sound... animal noise sort > # of... > # > (???) > # > > # > stupid phone wasn't working in the building but finally stepped out of the > # lab > # > and got her call... > # > > # > my son went down and gave her his '85 300D and then waited for me... so we > # > pulled it off > # > the freeway into a nearby park-n-ride with the VW TDI, took my tools out of > # > the 300d and left it. > # > > # > going down later tonight with the WJ to retrieve it... however the WJ's > # > radiator has shown > # > signs of leaking now... argghhhh... was showing it to someone (it's for > # sale, > # > or was) and pulled > # > it into a shop... then we both noticed a little green puddle under it... > # well, > # > at least I know > # > now that it wasn't the heater core... need to flush the system and replace > # the > # > rad... > # > > # > not sure what's up with the '91 300D... has oil, coolant, does crank, > # albeit > # > very slowly... definitely > # > not a fuel starvation issue... 0 oil pressure and slow cranking is not a > # good > # > thing. My son > # > was able to get it started and moved it a short distance before it died > # > again... had oil analysis > # > done just a few years back, not many miles, came back all a's, one b. > # > > # > 268,000 or so miles... guess the ads I'm seeing for used early '90s 300Ds > # > with new engines > # > around the same mileage makes sense... not sure if a wrecking yard engine > # is > # > worth a try, not > # > sure I want to rebuild it... > # > > # > not sure what we're going to do yet... > # > > # > other than fix the WJ and drive it for grocery getting... and pay lot$ for > # ga$ > # > :( > # > > # > john > # > > # > > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # > > # >____________________________________________________________ > # > Groupon™ Official Site > # > 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best! > # > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d828866ad45a1ece3est06vuc > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:58:45 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... Way better than a rubber band. john at http://wagoneers.com - -----Original Message----- From: "dave" Sender: WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 06:31:09 To: Reply-To: WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [WJ-Grand] Re: [db] mercedes kaput - going to drag home later with the WJ... Looks like you access the chain and oil pump after dropping pan and the chain even has a removable link too. ;-) Fingers crossed for you John! later, dave AKA vwdoc1 _____ From: WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WJ-Grand@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:56 AM bingo... I hope... great link dave... http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_timing_cover/oil_pump_chain.jpg this is an OM603, mines is an OM602, heading for the shop manual!!! On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, dave wrote: # http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1530971-1990-300d-om602 # -timing-chain-vacuum.html # # "For me the "Problem" was the Oil Pump Drive Sprocket Bolt backed out of the # O.P. ..." # # # # http://www.mbca.org/forum/oil-pump-question-87-300d-turbo # # "Re: Oil Pump Question: 87 300D Turbo # # Are you sure he didn't recommend a vacuum pump replacement??? The original # vac. pumps on that series engine are known to fail and drop pieces into the # engine, which sometimes can cause total engine destruction." # # Like I said I know very little about the MBs, so good luck! # # # # later, # # dave AKA vwdoc1 ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3415 **********************************