From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Fri Jul 20 05:12:00 2012 From: diesel-benz-digest To: diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:12:22 +0000 Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #3623 diesel-benz-digest Friday, July 20 2012 Volume 01 : Number 3623 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) Re: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) RE: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:10:18 -0700 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) The alternator seems to have died on the SL (light had been coming on sporadically since we got it, and Brooke got stranded a week or so ago). I was hoping to change it out myself, since it seemed straightforward when I researched it. Plus it might just be the voltage regulator, which is only about $30 and looks easy to replace, instead of the whole alternator ($250-350). But I have two problems stumping me: 1) I can't seem to get the serpentine belt tensioner to loosen at all to get the belt off of the alternator (https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/display/tech/Mercedes-Benz+E-Class+Owner%27s+Bible+%281986-1995%29%2C+Update#Mercedes-BenzE-ClassOwner%27sBible%281986-1995%29%2CUpdate-M104engine9) 2) The one bolt (of two) I can get to on the alternator without having yet removed the belt seems to be seized up, or at least I can't get the leverage necessary to break it free. Any tips or suggestions? I don't want to spray stuff to try to loosen the bolt until the serpentine belt is off (since I figure getting the spray on it would be bad). This is on the M104 I6 engine in the '91 R129. I guess if worse comes to worst, I can try to replace the regulator without removing the alternator... :( On the other cars, I got the fan clutch and stuff off the wrecked W124/602. I'm just not sure it will fit in the tight space in front of the '87 W124/603. I measured, and there will probably be less than a half an inch gap between fan and radiator. According to the dealership, the part numbers are the same for both engines, though. W115 is just chugging along happily, as usual, other than probably needs a brake flush. - -bkc Lynnwood, WA (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:34:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) interesting adjustment... did it loosen when you turned that bolt? I wonder if it's a cam lobe, because it says to point it at "A", so it would seem like it just takes up slack... if it's not loosening then there is a good chance that whoever installed that belt made the other bolts hold the belt tight instead of using the cam... or that cam ist kaput. that sure is a busy setup... yikes... :) for brake flush les schwab or pep boys would be acceptable... or get yourself down to harbor fright and pick up one of those vacuum tools... I used mine to bleed the new caliper on my jetta, and used the brake tool I bought there too... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) RTM: TRSTGZS - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # The alternator seems to have died on the SL (light had been coming on sporadically since we got it, and Brooke got stranded a week or so ago). # # I was hoping to change it out myself, since it seemed straightforward when I researched it. Plus it might just be the voltage regulator, which is only about $30 and looks easy to replace, instead of the whole alternator ($250-350). # # But I have two problems stumping me: # # 1) I can't seem to get the serpentine belt tensioner to loosen at all to get the belt off of the alternator (https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/display/tech/Mercedes-Benz+E-Class+Owner%27s+Bible+%281986-1995%29%2C+Update#Mercedes-BenzE-ClassOwner%27sBible%281986-1995%29%2CUpdate-M104engine9) # # 2) The one bolt (of two) I can get to on the alternator without having yet removed the belt seems to be seized up, or at least I can't get the leverage necessary to break it free. # # Any tips or suggestions? I don't want to spray stuff to try to loosen the bolt until the serpentine belt is off (since I figure getting the spray on it would be bad). # # This is on the M104 I6 engine in the '91 R129. # # I guess if worse comes to worst, I can try to replace the regulator without removing the alternator... :( # # On the other cars, I got the fan clutch and stuff off the wrecked W124/602. I'm just not sure it will fit in the tight space in front of the '87 W124/603. I measured, and there will probably be less than a half an inch gap between fan and radiator. According to the dealership, the part numbers are the same for both engines, though. # # W115 is just chugging along happily, as usual, other than probably needs a brake flush. # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) # (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) # (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) # (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:00:01 -0700 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) The belt ever so slightly loosened or tightened, but not in any repeatable pattern, and not only in one direction. And it never loosened more than being able to press it down an extra millimeter or two. It seems likely that a private mechanic for the PO probably broke the tensioner. Sigh. Another $100+ (at least, just for parts). Yup, a busy setup. Lots more than I'm used to with the diesels... As for the W115 brakes, I figure it has been a long time since anyone professional looked at the brake system, so I'm planning to bring it in to the dealership to have it checked over and flushed, and maybe tighten the steering a bit more. - -bkc Lynnwood, WA (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) On Thu Jul 19, 2012, John Meister wrote: > > interesting adjustment... did it loosen when you turned that bolt? > I wonder if it's a cam lobe, because it says to point it at "A", so > it would seem like it just takes up slack... if it's not loosening then > there is a good chance that whoever installed that belt made the other > bolts hold the belt tight instead of using the cam... or that cam ist kaput. > > that sure is a busy setup... yikes... :) > > for brake flush les schwab or pep boys would be acceptable... > or get yourself down to harbor fright and pick up one of those vacuum tools... > I used mine to bleed the new caliper on my jetta, and used the brake tool I bought > there too... > > > > On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: > > # The alternator seems to have died on the SL (light had been coming on sporadically since we got it, and Brooke got stranded a week or so ago). > # > # I was hoping to change it out myself, since it seemed straightforward when I researched it. Plus it might just be the voltage regulator, which is only about $30 and looks easy to replace, instead of the whole alternator ($250-350). > # > # But I have two problems stumping me: > # > # 1) I can't seem to get the serpentine belt tensioner to loosen at all to get the belt off of the alternator (https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/display/tech/Mercedes-Benz+E-Class+Owner%27s+Bible+%281986-1995%29%2C+Update#Mercedes-BenzE-ClassOwner%27sBible%281986-1995%29%2CUpdate-M104engine9) > # > # 2) The one bolt (of two) I can get to on the alternator without having yet removed the belt seems to be seized up, or at least I can't get the leverage necessary to break it free. > # > # Any tips or suggestions? I don't want to spray stuff to try to loosen the bolt until the serpentine belt is off (since I figure getting the spray on it would be bad). > # > # This is on the M104 I6 engine in the '91 R129. > # > # I guess if worse comes to worst, I can try to replace the regulator without removing the alternator... :( > # > # On the other cars, I got the fan clutch and stuff off the wrecked W124/602. I'm just not sure it will fit in the tight space in front of the '87 W124/603. I measured, and there will probably be less than a half an inch gap between fan and radiator. According to the dealership, the part numbers are the same for both engines, though. > # > # W115 is just chugging along happily, as usual, other than probably needs a brake flush. > # > # -bkc > # Lynnwood, WA > # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:07:16 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] belt tensioner, alternator (M104) the steering box has an adjustment nut... I think... or am I thinking of an old jeepster... :) sounds like they overtightened the belt, the adjuster may still be ok... if they didn't understand that the cam is supposed to take up the slack they may just have made the belt properly tight with the main bolts... look at the setup and loosen the one that pivots or rotates... well, loosen the pivot point too... that should allow the part that pivots to swing free and release the belt. Then when you go back to do it, push that thing over until the belt is "taut" and then tighten the bolts, then adjust the tension with the cam things... I doubt they broke it, just didn't get it... mercedes does a lot of goofy things... if you don't know how they did it... if you don't understand what they were thinking, then you'd probably refer to them as milton bradleys... ;) it would be pretty cool to be able to take a mercedes factory mechanic class... :) If my back weren't such an issue I'd love to be a mechanic at the lynnwood mercedes dealership... what a nice shop... love it... if I won the lottery... I'd build a shop like that, right next to the massive garden that my wife would have built... :) I wonder if there's a book like the Unix philosophy book to explain mercedes shop manuals... :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) RTM: TRSTGZS - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # # The belt ever so slightly loosened or tightened, but not in any repeatable pattern, and not only in one direction. And it never loosened more than being able to press it down an extra millimeter or two. It seems likely that a private mechanic for the PO probably broke the tensioner. Sigh. Another $100+ (at least, just for parts). # # Yup, a busy setup. Lots more than I'm used to with the diesels... # # As for the W115 brakes, I figure it has been a long time since anyone professional looked at the brake system, so I'm planning to bring it in to the dealership to have it checked over and flushed, and maybe tighten the steering a bit more. # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) # (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) # (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) # (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) # # # On Thu Jul 19, 2012, John Meister wrote: # > # > interesting adjustment... did it loosen when you turned that bolt? # > I wonder if it's a cam lobe, because it says to point it at "A", so # > it would seem like it just takes up slack... if it's not loosening then # > there is a good chance that whoever installed that belt made the other # > bolts hold the belt tight instead of using the cam... or that cam ist kaput. # > # > that sure is a busy setup... yikes... :) # > # > for brake flush les schwab or pep boys would be acceptable... # > or get yourself down to harbor fright and pick up one of those vacuum tools... # > I used mine to bleed the new caliper on my jetta, and used the brake tool I bought # > there too... # > # > # > # > On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # > # > # The alternator seems to have died on the SL (light had been coming on sporadically since we got it, and Brooke got stranded a week or so ago). # > # # > # I was hoping to change it out myself, since it seemed straightforward when I researched it. Plus it might just be the voltage regulator, which is only about $30 and looks easy to replace, instead of the whole alternator ($250-350). # > # # > # But I have two problems stumping me: # > # # > # 1) I can't seem to get the serpentine belt tensioner to loosen at all to get the belt off of the alternator (https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/display/tech/Mercedes-Benz+E-Class+Owner%27s+Bible+%281986-1995%29%2C+Update#Mercedes-BenzE-ClassOwner%27sBible%281986-1995%29%2CUpdate-M104engine9) # > # # > # 2) The one bolt (of two) I can get to on the alternator without having yet removed the belt seems to be seized up, or at least I can't get the leverage necessary to break it free. # > # # > # Any tips or suggestions? I don't want to spray stuff to try to loosen the bolt until the serpentine belt is off (since I figure getting the spray on it would be bad). # > # # > # This is on the M104 I6 engine in the '91 R129. # > # # > # I guess if worse comes to worst, I can try to replace the regulator without removing the alternator... :( # > # # > # On the other cars, I got the fan clutch and stuff off the wrecked W124/602. I'm just not sure it will fit in the tight space in front of the '87 W124/603. I measured, and there will probably be less than a half an inch gap between fan and radiator. According to the dealership, the part numbers are the same for both engines, though. # > # # > # W115 is just chugging along happily, as usual, other than probably needs a brake flush. # > # # > # -bkc # > # Lynnwood, WA # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:12:15 -0700 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) When the manuals say to tighten something to, for example, 45 N-m, what tool am I supposed to be using to judge that? Are there tricks to doing it with regular hand tools and judging the resistance? - -bkc Lynnwood, WA (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:27:28 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) 45 N-m = 33.19025 ft lbs I'd say that's about palm tight with a 3/8" ratchet choked up about 1/3rd of the handle... for me... but you should see what I did to my Jetta dash when I forgot two screws... remember, I spent 8 years in the army doing pushups... ;) I'd recommend investing $30 in a harbor freight ratching style torque wrench... I picked up one years ago at a discount store and it's worked well for me over the years... I don't think you could really hurt it unless you used a long bar or really herc'd on it. If you were to use a 3/8" ratchet of normal size and put a decent amount of pressure on it I don't think you'd go much over about 40 ftlbs. john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) RTM: TRSTGZS - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # When the manuals say to tighten something to, for example, 45 N-m, what tool am I supposed to be using to judge that? # # Are there tricks to doing it with regular hand tools and judging the resistance? # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) # (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) # (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) # (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:11:51 -0500 From: "Potter, Tom E" Subject: RE: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) Get one of these. I do not recommend the click type torque wrenches, unless you have access to a metrology lab; they get out of calibration too easily. I worked with them in the nuclear industry, and we had to check the calibration on them before every job. I have seen them as much as 60 percent out of calibration. http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-3-8-in-dr-beam-style-torque-wrench/p-00932 999000P?vName=Hand+Tools&cName=Wrenches&sName=Torque+Wrenches&prdNo=8&blockNo =8&blockType=L8 Also, torquing a bolt is useless unless the threads are in good shape AND CLEAN. Before you start torquing, read up on the proper techniques. There is plenty of good info on the Internet. Thomas E. Potter Technical Specialist II Transcontinental Gas Pipe Line Company, LLC Office: (713) 215-2877 Cell: (832) 794-0536 Fax: (713) 215-2551 E-mail: tom.e.potter@williams.com - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz@digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 11:27 PM To: Bruce Caruthers Cc: diesel-benz@Digest.net Subject: Re: [db] really newbie question (bolt torques) 45 N-m = 33.19025 ft lbs I'd say that's about palm tight with a 3/8" ratchet choked up about 1/3rd of the handle... for me... but you should see what I did to my Jetta dash when I forgot two screws... remember, I spent 8 years in the army doing pushups... ;) I'd recommend investing $30 in a harbor freight ratching style torque wrench... I picked up one years ago at a discount store and it's worked well for me over the years... I don't think you could really hurt it unless you used a long bar or really herc'd on it. If you were to use a 3/8" ratchet of normal size and put a decent amount of pressure on it I don't think you'd go much over about 40 ftlbs. john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) RTM: TRSTGZS - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # When the manuals say to tighten something to, for example, 45 N-m, what tool am I supposed to be using to judge that? # # Are there tricks to doing it with regular hand tools and judging the resistance? # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (long overdue to be retired or sold) # (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired, 21Apr12) # (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired, 25May12) # (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled, 28Mar12) # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3623 **********************************