From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Fri Jan 25 23:30:00 2013 From: diesel-benz-digest To: diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:29:37 +0000 Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #3723 diesel-benz-digest Saturday, January 26 2013 Volume 01 : Number 3723 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? RE: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:41:02 -0800 From: Eric Ditwiler Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? The resistance on the plugs should be about 2 ohms--which will look like 0 on a cheap meter, But the circuits usually open when they are bad so the binary operation is fine. Gear wrenches come in handy for changing glow-plugs. On Jan 24, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Bruce Caruthers wrote: > So, in the ongoing saga of the 300DT with "issues"... > > After a few days of the recent cold snap, the 300D (1987, w124.133, om603.960) is very hard to start cold. It takes several tries, stalling out each time. It runs fine once it is on the road, and starts fine warm. It is still having trouble even now that it has warmed up quite a bit. Seems to be getting worse. > > I am suspecting glowplugs, or glowplug controller. Controller always has (and has since we got it) the light on for 60 seconds, regardless of temperature, whether the car recently ran, etc. We do hear the relay kick off when the light goes out, so it is doing *something*. But we usually just use the SRS light as out glow timer (10 seconds) which, by the manual, should have the glowplugs up to 900+ degrees by then, even at -10 C ambient. > > Only known recent change is the fuel thermostat stuff (new fuel lines, new o-ring and snap ring). No visible leaks from the fuel heating lines, but I suppose there could be air in the system? But wouldn't that affect it on warm starts to at least some degree as well? > > I should note that all of this is second-hand, as I am already long since out of the house in the morning by the time my lovely wife is trying to start the car. (My trusty W115 still starts and goes effortlessly.) > > Any advice on how best to check into this? From looking at the manuals, I don't think I have the testers and such to verify amperage and voltage. I can check ohms (I have a basic Radio Shack multimeter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). > > Thanks for any advice! > > (In other car news, so far the r129 apparently is up to around $4,000 in parts under insurance for the trunk fire, where the alarm and top controls spontaneous cooked off. Looks like I'll be getting a brand new alarms system from Car Toys under insurance, rather than trying to find an original that might just cook off again anyway.) > > -bkc > Lynnwood, WA > (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (acquired 11Jun76) > (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (sold?) > (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired 21Apr12) > (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired 25May12, > diesel engine swap planned from wrecked W124 OM602) > (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled 28Mar12) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 02:45:46 +0000 From: "john" Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? You may need to pull the intake manifold to get to those plugs. You can measure the resistance on the fender, was it you or my son that I showed that to recently? John ######## john @ wagoneers.com ######## "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" - Theodore Roosevelt ######## two word summary: Trust Jesus ######## - -----Original Message----- From: Eric Ditwiler Sender: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:41:02 To: Bruce Caruthers Cc: Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? The resistance on the plugs should be about 2 ohms--which will look like 0 on a cheap meter, But the circuits usually open when they are bad so the binary operation is fine. Gear wrenches come in handy for changing glow-plugs. On Jan 24, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Bruce Caruthers wrote: > So, in the ongoing saga of the 300DT with "issues"... > > After a few days of the recent cold snap, the 300D (1987, w124.133, om603.960) is very hard to start cold. It takes several tries, stalling out each time. It runs fine once it is on the road, and starts fine warm. It is still having trouble even now that it has warmed up quite a bit. Seems to be getting worse. > > I am suspecting glowplugs, or glowplug controller. Controller always has (and has since we got it) the light on for 60 seconds, regardless of temperature, whether the car recently ran, etc. We do hear the relay kick off when the light goes out, so it is doing *something*. But we usually just use the SRS light as out glow timer (10 seconds) which, by the manual, should have the glowplugs up to 900+ degrees by then, even at -10 C ambient. > > Only known recent change is the fuel thermostat stuff (new fuel lines, new o-ring and snap ring). No visible leaks from the fuel heating lines, but I suppose there could be air in the system? But wouldn't that affect it on warm starts to at least some degree as well? > > I should note that all of this is second-hand, as I am already long since out of the house in the morning by the time my lovely wife is trying to start the car. (My trusty W115 still starts and goes effortlessly.) > > Any advice on how best to check into this? From looking at the manuals, I don't think I have the testers and such to verify amperage and voltage. I can check ohms (I have a basic Radio Shack multimeter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). > > Thanks for any advice! > > (In other car news, so far the r129 apparently is up to around $4,000 in parts under insurance for the trunk fire, where the alarm and top controls spontaneous cooked off. Looks like I'll be getting a brand new alarms system from Car Toys under insurance, rather than trying to find an original that might just cook off again anyway.) > > -bkc > Lynnwood, WA > (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (acquired 11Jun76) > (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (sold?) > (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired 21Apr12) > (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired 25May12, > diesel engine swap planned from wrecked W124 OM602) > (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled 28Mar12) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:16:34 -0800 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Must have been your son... Either that or I totally missed it! - -bkc On Fri Jan 25, 2013, John Meister wrote: > > You may need to pull the intake manifold to get to those plugs. > > You can measure the resistance on the fender, was it you or my son that I showed that to recently? > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Ditwiler > Sender: owner-diesel-benz@digest.net > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:41:02 > To: Bruce Caruthers > Cc: > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? > > The resistance on the plugs should be about 2 ohms--which will look like 0 on > a cheap meter, > > But the circuits usually open when they are bad so the binary operation is > fine. > > Gear wrenches come in handy for changing glow-plugs. > > > > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Bruce Caruthers > wrote: > > > So, in the ongoing saga of the 300DT with "issues"... > > > > After a few days of the recent cold snap, the 300D (1987, w124.133, > om603.960) is very hard to start cold. It takes several tries, stalling out > each time. It runs fine once it is on the road, and starts fine warm. It is > still having trouble even now that it has warmed up quite a bit. Seems to be > getting worse. > > > > I am suspecting glowplugs, or glowplug controller. Controller always has > (and has since we got it) the light on for 60 seconds, regardless of > temperature, whether the car recently ran, etc. We do hear the relay kick off > when the light goes out, so it is doing *something*. But we usually just use > the SRS light as our glow timer (10 seconds) which, by the manual, should have > the glowplugs up to 900+ degrees by then, even at -10 C ambient. > > > > Only known recent change is the fuel thermostat stuff (new fuel lines, new > o-ring and snap ring). No visible leaks from the fuel heating lines, but I > suppose there could be air in the system? But wouldn't that affect it on warm > starts to at least some degree as well? > > > > I should note that all of this is second-hand, as I am already long since > out of the house in the morning by the time my lovely wife is trying to start > the car. (My trusty W115 still starts and goes effortlessly.) > > > > Any advice on how best to check into this? From looking at the manuals, I > don't think I have the testers and such to verify amperage and voltage. I can > check ohms (I have a basic Radio Shack multimeter). How much of a bear is it > to change the plugs? They probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall > that they are horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). > > > > Thanks for any advice! > > > > (In other car news, so far the r129 apparently is up to around $4,000 in > parts under insurance for the trunk fire, where the alarm and top controls > spontaneous cooked off. Looks like I'll be getting a brand new alarms system > from Car Toys under insurance, rather than trying to find an original that > might just cook off again anyway.) - -bkc Lynnwood, WA (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] (acquired 11Jun76) (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT (sold?) (ours) '87 MB 300D Turbo [W124.133/603.960] (acquired 21Apr12) (ours) '91 MB 300SL-24 [R129.061/M104.981] (acquired 25May12, diesel engine swap planned from wrecked W124 OM602) (RIP) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] (totaled 28Mar12) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:17:53 -0800 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? The light goes off once the car is starting (or trying to). But I am not convinced the controller is wired right. It was altered b y the PO (wire to dash comes off a different connection, old wire is disconnected). I hadn't checked on it yet (is on my list to ev entually get to) as it seemed to be working well enough. Until now. Guess I need to learn how to R&R the intake manifold... Looks like I'll need some replacement gaskets? What else will I need? - -bkc On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Michael Frank wrote: > On these engines, you pretty much have to remove the intake manifold > to get to the glow plugs. I know some folks say you can do it without > removing anything, but not with my clumsy hands. > > If the light stays on after the car is started, it's a bad plug for sure. > > Mike Frank > > At 09:07 PM 1/24/2013, you wrote: > >meter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They > >probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are > >horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:24:13 -0500 From: Steve Morelen Subject: RE: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? I just went through this a month ago. The resistance of a cold glow plug, measured from the plug at the controller to the engine is approx 0.5 ohms. [this comes from measurements with a known-good ohmmeter] Since ohmmeters can vary in accuracy/resolution the best indicator of a bad plug is a comparison measurement of all the plugs. You must have an ohmmeter capable of resolving half ohm differences in order to detect a marginally bad plug...which usually turns out to be a truly bad plug anyway. A [very] few of the plugs can be replaced without pulling the intake manifold. To enjoy reasonable access to all the plugs you need to pull the intake manifold. If you try without pulling the manifold, I believe you'll spend more time messing around with difficult-impossible access than the time spent pulling/replacing the manifold. You'll need to replace 2 gaskets on the intake manifold. You need a ball-end allen tool to remove the manifold bolts. Once the manifold is removed, cover the intake port openings on the cylinder head to prevent junk from falling down into the engine. [Murphy's Law works at 100% probability here] Depending on how things go, there may be a few plastic fuel-line securing clips that you might want to replace. Be careful with the wiring and plumbing on the driver's side of the manifold. If yours is like mine, all that stuff is pretty brittle...I'm usually pretty careful about such stuff and still managed to snap a plastic line. I recommend that you replace all 6 glow plugs if you go to the trouble of pulling the intake manifold. I bought my plugs [Bosch] for approx $8 each. p.s. don't remove throttle linkages...the plastic ends are also probably brittle. //steve > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:17:53 -0800 > From: bkc-benzlist2@dreamfire.com > To: diesel-benz@Digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? > > The light goes off once the car is starting (or trying to). But I am not convinced the controller is wired right. It was altered b > y the PO (wire to dash comes off a different connection, old wire is disconnected). I hadn't checked on it yet (is on my list to ev > entually get to) as it seemed to be working well enough. Until now. > > Guess I need to learn how to R&R the intake manifold... Looks like I'll need some replacement gaskets? What else will I need? > > -bkc > > On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Michael Frank wrote: > > On these engines, you pretty much have to remove the intake manifold > > to get to the glow plugs. I know some folks say you can do it without > > removing anything, but not with my clumsy hands. > > > > If the light stays on after the car is started, it's a bad plug for sure. > > > > Mike Frank > > > > At 09:07 PM 1/24/2013, you wrote: > > >meter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They > > >probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are > > >horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:28:53 -0800 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? The car refused to start at all this morning, no matter how much cranking or glowing was done. With some phone help from John, I tested the six connections to the relay, and determined that all six glowplugs seem to be dead (one sometimes gave a reading, but only sometimes). I got as far as removing the part over the motor between turbo and manifold, and eight of the twelve manifold bolts. Then I found that the last four bolts (the end near the firewall) had been thoroughly stripped and were locked in solid. After a few futile attempts that only further rounded out the allen heads, I gave up and called up the dealership to see if they can get me in ASAP. Ordered up the plugs from them (a little more expensive, but *should* be here Monday morning), and put the car back together. Before calling up roadside assistance and probably having to wait some 2-4 hours for being towed to the dealership, I tried all sorts of things to get it started to at least get it to the dealership. What seemed to finally work was doing the full-length glow three times, turning the key back off instead of trying to start it each time, and then on the third run, just holding the key all the way and cranking it without stop until either battery or starter died. I managed to finally get it to turn over after the (literal) 57th crank effort. It ran really roughly, but after about 10 minutes of idling, it was fairly normal, and behaved fine getting to the dealership. Lots of whitish smoke in the cul-de-sac from all the cranking, but almost no smoke once it was running steadily. I'm just frustrated that I have to pay the dealership to do what I should have been able to do myself, if it weren't for the stripped bolts (thanks, PO). I've told them to just put in the glowplugs and, unless it obviously still has trouble starting, don't put in any (billable) time to diagnose. If it does still have problems, they're supposed to call me first. For now, we had to rent a car so my wife can reliably get to work and other responsibilities. (Was very weird watching my W115 drive off this morning, without me in it!) - -bkc On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Steve Morelen wrote: > > I just went through this a month ago. The resistance of a cold glow plug, > measured from the plug at the controller to the engine is approx 0.5 ohms. > [this comes from measurements with a known-good ohmmeter] Since ohmmeters can > vary in accuracy/resolution the best indicator of a bad plug is a comparison > measurement of all the plugs. You must have an ohmmeter capable of resolving > half ohm differences in order to detect a marginally bad plug...which usually > turns out to be a truly bad plug anyway. A [very] few of the plugs can be > replaced without pulling the intake manifold. To enjoy reasonable access to > all the plugs you need to pull the intake manifold. If you try without > pulling the manifold, I believe you'll spend more time messing around with > difficult-impossible access than the time spent pulling/replacing the > manifold. You'll need to replace 2 gaskets on the intake manifold. You need > a ball-end allen tool to remove the manifold bolts. Once the manifold is > removed, cover the intake port openings on the cylinder head to prevent junk > from falling down into the engine. [Murphy's Law works at 100% probability > here] Depending on how things go, there may be a few plastic fuel-line > securing clips that you might want to replace. Be careful with the wiring and > plumbing on the driver's side of the manifold. If yours is like mine, all > that stuff is pretty brittle...I'm usually pretty careful about such stuff and > still managed to snap a plastic line. I recommend that you replace all 6 > glow plugs if you go to the trouble of pulling the intake manifold. I bought > my plugs [Bosch] for approx $8 each. p.s. don't remove throttle > linkages...the plastic ends are also probably brittle. > //steve > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:17:53 -0800 > > From: bkc-benzlist2@dreamfire.com > > To: diesel-benz@Digest.net > > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? > > > > The light goes off once the car is starting (or trying to). But I am not > convinced the controller is wired right. It was altered b > > y the PO (wire to dash comes off a different connection, old wire is > disconnected). I hadn't checked on it yet (is on my list to ev > > entually get to) as it seemed to be working well enough. Until now. > > > > Guess I need to learn how to R&R the intake manifold... Looks like I'll > need some replacement gaskets? What else will I need? > > > > -bkc > > > > On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Michael Frank wrote: > > > On these engines, you pretty much have to remove the intake manifold > > > to get to the glow plugs. I know some folks say you can do it without > > > removing anything, but not with my clumsy hands. > > > > > > If the light stays on after the car is started, it's a bad plug for sure. > > > > > > Mike Frank > > > > > > At 09:07 PM 1/24/2013, you wrote: > > > >meter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They > > > >probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are > > > >horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3723 **********************************