From owner-diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Sun Jan 27 17:10:48 2013 From: diesel-benz-digest To: diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 01:10:31 +0000 Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #3724 diesel-benz-digest Monday, January 28 2013 Volume 01 : Number 3724 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? RE: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? hope that fixes it... getting stripped out bolts out is always a pain... great engineering challenges... Let's hope the dealer puts in good bolts... I ended up breaking my throttle linkage when I did my 124 glow plugs... :( old plastic parts are pretty delicate... I forgot to mention that light use of starting fluid could get it going... as long as you don't puddle it in there or spray in directly it can be done... had to talk my son through the process, he was a Diesel Generator mechanic in the air force and they instilled the fear of starter fluid in those guys, which is good... improper application of it can be very damaging. Just give it a whiff across the air intake, then crank... doesn't take much... if you have someone to crank it's easier... by the time you get around to the ignition switch most of it has dissipated. :) of course you were stranded... without starter fluid... or propane... I've found that amsoil mp works as a starter fluid... it's flammable, but not nearly as much as starter fluid... ...you could always borrow my J10... I think it got about 4mpg the last tank, mainly because I don't drive it... I start it up, drive it up and down the drive a few times, let it warm up and don't take it anywhere... should get closer to 10 mpg if driven... ;) of course the gas guage doesn't work so well... but the good news is the brakes are all working now... :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # From: Bruce Caruthers # To: Steve Morelen # Cc: "diesel-benz@digest.net" # Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:28:53 -0800 # Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? # # The car refused to start at all this morning, no matter how much cranking or glowing was done. With some phone help from John, I tested the six connections to the relay, and determined that all six glowplugs seem to be dead (one sometimes gave a reading, but only sometimes). # # I got as far as removing the part over the motor between turbo and manifold, and eight of the twelve manifold bolts. Then I found that the last four bolts (the end near the firewall) had been thoroughly stripped and were locked in solid. After a few futile attempts that only further rounded out the allen heads, I gave up and called up the dealership to see if they can get me in ASAP. Ordered up the plugs from them (a little more expensive, but *should* be here Monday morning), and put the car back together. # # Before calling up roadside assistance and probably having to wait some 2-4 hours for being towed to the dealership, I tried all sorts of things to get it started to at least get it to the dealership. What seemed to finally work was doing the full-length glow three times, turning the key back off instead of trying to start it each time, and then on the third run, just holding the key all the way and cranking it without stop until either battery or starter died. I managed to finally get it to turn over after the (literal) 57th crank effort. It ran really roughly, but after about 10 minutes of idling, it was fairly normal, and behaved fine getting to the dealership. Lots of whitish smoke in the cul-de-sac from all the cranking, but almost no smoke once it was running steadily. # # I'm just frustrated that I have to pay the dealership to do what I should have been able to do myself, if it weren't for the stripped bolts (thanks, PO). I've told them to just put in the glowplugs and, unless it obviously still has trouble starting, don't put in any (billable) time to diagnose. If it does still have problems, they're supposed to call me first. # # For now, we had to rent a car so my wife can reliably get to work and other responsibilities. (Was very weird watching my W115 drive off this morning, without me in it!) # # -bkc # # On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Steve Morelen wrote: # > # > I just went through this a month ago. The resistance of a cold glow plug, # > measured from the plug at the controller to the engine is approx 0.5 ohms. # > [this comes from measurements with a known-good ohmmeter] Since ohmmeters can # > vary in accuracy/resolution the best indicator of a bad plug is a comparison # > measurement of all the plugs. You must have an ohmmeter capable of resolving # > half ohm differences in order to detect a marginally bad plug...which usually # > turns out to be a truly bad plug anyway. A [very] few of the plugs can be # > replaced without pulling the intake manifold. To enjoy reasonable access to # > all the plugs you need to pull the intake manifold. If you try without # > pulling the manifold, I believe you'll spend more time messing around with # > difficult-impossible access than the time spent pulling/replacing the # > manifold. You'll need to replace 2 gaskets on the intake manifold. You need # > a ball-end allen tool to remove the manifold bolts. Once the manifold is # > removed, cover the intake port openings on the cylinder head to prevent junk # > from falling down into the engine. [Murphy's Law works at 100% probability # > here] Depending on how things go, there may be a few plastic fuel-line # > securing clips that you might want to replace. Be careful with the wiring and # > plumbing on the driver's side of the manifold. If yours is like mine, all # > that stuff is pretty brittle...I'm usually pretty careful about such stuff and # > still managed to snap a plastic line. I recommend that you replace all 6 # > glow plugs if you go to the trouble of pulling the intake manifold. I bought # > my plugs [Bosch] for approx $8 each. p.s. don't remove throttle # > linkages...the plastic ends are also probably brittle. # > //steve # > # > > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:17:53 -0800 # > > From: bkc-benzlist2@dreamfire.com # > > To: diesel-benz@Digest.net # > > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? # > > # > > The light goes off once the car is starting (or trying to). But I am not # > convinced the controller is wired right. It was altered b # > > y the PO (wire to dash comes off a different connection, old wire is # > disconnected). I hadn't checked on it yet (is on my list to ev # > > entually get to) as it seemed to be working well enough. Until now. # > > # > > Guess I need to learn how to R&R the intake manifold... Looks like I'll # > need some replacement gaskets? What else will I need? # > > # > > -bkc # > > # > > On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Michael Frank wrote: # > > > On these engines, you pretty much have to remove the intake manifold # > > > to get to the glow plugs. I know some folks say you can do it without # > > > removing anything, but not with my clumsy hands. # > > > # > > > If the light stays on after the car is started, it's a bad plug for sure. # > > > # > > > Mike Frank # > > > # > > > At 09:07 PM 1/24/2013, you wrote: # > > > >meter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They # > > > >probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are # > > > >horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:09:57 -0500 From: Steve Morelen Subject: RE: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? Sorry to hear that a relatively simple repair devolved into a dealer visit. Mucked-up fasteners are one of my pet peeves. I used to work on maritime radio/radar equipment and slightly messed up screw heads, combined with normal salt-water environment damage made for a lot of frustrating moments. It was then that I started investing in really good screwdrivers and allen-type tools with proper robust tips to maximize my chances of success in disassembling things. I'm curious to know what the dealer discovers regarding your glow system. I started having cold-start issues back in autumn [rough idle after starting] with my '87 300D and by early December it became necessary to do something about it. I knew I had one bad plug in autumn and by early December there were two. I'm amazed the thing still wanted to start with 2 bad plugs. My '84 300D will not start with even a single bad glow plug. Funny thing is...after fixing the plugs it is still starting badly, even with extended glow time. I'm still puzzling over root-cause for my rough start problems...... //steve > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 23:28:53 -0800 > From: bkc-benzlist2@dreamfire.com > To: smorelen@hotmail.com > CC: diesel-benz@digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? > > The car refused to start at all this morning, no matter how much cranking or glowing was done. With some phone help from John, I tested the six connections to the relay, and determined that all six glowplugs seem to be dead (one sometimes gave a reading, but only sometimes). > > I got as far as removing the part over the motor between turbo and manifold, and eight of the twelve manifold bolts. Then I found that the last four bolts (the end near the firewall) had been thoroughly stripped and were locked in solid. After a few futile attempts that only further rounded out the allen heads, I gave up and called up the dealership to see if they can get me in ASAP. Ordered up the plugs from them (a little more expensive, but *should* be here Monday morning), and put the car back together. > > Before calling up roadside assistance and probably having to wait some 2-4 hours for being towed to the dealership, I tried all sorts of things to get it started to at least get it to the dealership. What seemed to finally work was doing the full-length glow three times, turning the key back off instead of trying to start it each time, and then on the third run, just holding the key all the way and cranking it without stop until either battery or starter died. I managed to finally get it to turn over after the (literal) 57th crank effort. It ran really roughly, but after about 10 minutes of idling, it was fairly normal, and behaved fine getting to the dealership. Lots of whitish smoke in the cul-de-sac from all the cranking, but almost no smoke once it was running steadily. > > I'm just frustrated that I have to pay the dealership to do what I should have been able to do myself, if it weren't for the stripped bolts (thanks, PO). I've told them to just put in the glowplugs and, unless it obviously still has trouble starting, don't put in any (billable) time to diagnose. If it does still have problems, they're supposed to call me first. > > For now, we had to rent a car so my wife can reliably get to work and other responsibilities. (Was very weird watching my W115 drive off this morning, without me in it!) > > -bkc > > On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Steve Morelen wrote: > > > > I just went through this a month ago. The resistance of a cold glow plug, > > measured from the plug at the controller to the engine is approx 0.5 ohms. > > [this comes from measurements with a known-good ohmmeter] Since ohmmeters can > > vary in accuracy/resolution the best indicator of a bad plug is a comparison > > measurement of all the plugs. You must have an ohmmeter capable of resolving > > half ohm differences in order to detect a marginally bad plug...which usually > > turns out to be a truly bad plug anyway. A [very] few of the plugs can be > > replaced without pulling the intake manifold. To enjoy reasonable access to > > all the plugs you need to pull the intake manifold. If you try without > > pulling the manifold, I believe you'll spend more time messing around with > > difficult-impossible access than the time spent pulling/replacing the > > manifold. You'll need to replace 2 gaskets on the intake manifold. You need > > a ball-end allen tool to remove the manifold bolts. Once the manifold is > > removed, cover the intake port openings on the cylinder head to prevent junk > > from falling down into the engine. [Murphy's Law works at 100% probability > > here] Depending on how things go, there may be a few plastic fuel-line > > securing clips that you might want to replace. Be careful with the wiring and > > plumbing on the driver's side of the manifold. If yours is like mine, all > > that stuff is pretty brittle...I'm usually pretty careful about such stuff and > > still managed to snap a plastic line. I recommend that you replace all 6 > > glow plugs if you go to the trouble of pulling the intake manifold. I bought > > my plugs [Bosch] for approx $8 each. p.s. don't remove throttle > > linkages...the plastic ends are also probably brittle. > > //steve > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:17:53 -0800 > > > From: bkc-benzlist2@dreamfire.com > > > To: diesel-benz@Digest.net > > > Subject: Re: [db] trouble starting 87 300D - glowplugs? > > > > > > The light goes off once the car is starting (or trying to). But I am not > > convinced the controller is wired right. It was altered b > > > y the PO (wire to dash comes off a different connection, old wire is > > disconnected). I hadn't checked on it yet (is on my list to ev > > > entually get to) as it seemed to be working well enough. Until now. > > > > > > Guess I need to learn how to R&R the intake manifold... Looks like I'll > > need some replacement gaskets? What else will I need? > > > > > > -bkc > > > > > > On Thu Jan 24, 2013, Michael Frank wrote: > > > > On these engines, you pretty much have to remove the intake manifold > > > > to get to the glow plugs. I know some folks say you can do it without > > > > removing anything, but not with my clumsy hands. > > > > > > > > If the light stays on after the car is started, it's a bad plug for sure. > > > > > > > > Mike Frank > > > > > > > > At 09:07 PM 1/24/2013, you wrote: > > > > >meter). How much of a bear is it to change the plugs? They > > > > >probably could use it anyway, and I don't recall that they are > > > > >horribly expensive (the controller seems to be, though). ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #3724 **********************************